AM I JEW OR A GENTILE IF I KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS ?

Vaudeville · Apr 8, 2014

read Acts 13. and 1 Corinthians 2. God used the scribes and pharisees who had murder in their hearts to carry out his plan of salvation (Christ crucified) which absolutely was his plan. peter and stephen both proclaimed it, though God was merciful even to those who would repent of having called for his death. those who didn't repent were not forgiven.

Acts 2
This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

just-me · Apr 8, 2014

Daley said:

The Pharisees practiced their own law, and they were Jews. Maybe that's what you meant by "a person who practices the law of Moses." Nevertheless the Pharisees didn't practice the original law God gave to Moses, for they had a totally messed up version by the time Jesus arrived on the scene.

John 7:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Then again, maybe you meant someone like Paul?

Acts 24:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
Acts 24:13-14 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

It was the Pharisees that didn't like the truth of the law and the prophets that Paul was teaching to both Jews and Gentiles. I believe that the original law that God gave was the right one, and even included "faith."

Matthew 23:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Romans 3:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

phil112 · Apr 8, 2014

Vaudeville said:

That does not qualify one to be charged as a murderer. Knowing someone will kill is not the same as the guy pulling the trigger.
If I tell Bill I am going to kill Joe if Bill comes closer, and he does and I do, that doesn't make Bill the killer.

Yes, God knew what the jews would do. But they still chose to do it. They planned on it. It was murder 1 (premeditated).

eternally-gratefull · Apr 8, 2014

just-me said:

The Pharisees practiced their own law, and they were Jews. Maybe that's what you meant by "a person who practices the law of Moses." Nevertheless the Pharisees didn't practice the original law God gave to Moses, for they had a totally messed up version by the time Jesus arrived on the scene. John 7:19 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? John 5:46-47 (KJV) [SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. [SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? Then again, maybe you meant someone like Paul? Acts 24:10 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself: Acts 24:13-14 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: It was the Pharisees that didn't like the truth of the law and the prophets that Paul was teaching to both Jews and Gentiles. I believe that the original law that God gave was the right one, and even included "faith." Matthew 23:23 (KJV) [SUP]23 [/SUP]Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Romans 3:31 (KJV) [SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Note we all should keep in mind. NO ONE KEEPS THE LAW. We can't. So when Jesus says, you do not keep the law. he is speaking to every one of us. Of course those of us not trying to get to God by keeping the law would not be told this, because we already know it. So we do not have to be confronted by this. As the Pharisees were.

Zinzerio · Apr 8, 2014

What does arguing about the law do when quite clearly (Jesus says if you break the law you commit sin) ? Anyone feel free to answer and anyone who has not yest posted feel free to do so.

My stance is this and i urge brothers to find similar scripture because it causes hatred and innocent shedding of blood. (jonah 4:6-11)

I also urge brothers and sisters to pray for everyone here before continuing (you can not hate some one you pray for, (let us pray. Farther God we know that you put everything on are earth and we know you make footstools of are enemy so we have no need to hate because you do this for your children without even having to be asked.

We also know that are guardian looks in your face all the time who watches over and we know that no one can harm a child of God who lives in you and you in him dear farther.

Farther God is both the lion and the lamb that is the character of God The lamb is the innocent the lion is the one who protects innocence.

The lion is also has a beautiful character weep no more the lion of the tribe of Judah has won the victory revelation 5:5
when the enemy comes in like a flood the spirit of lord will put him to flight Isiah 59:19

Daley · Apr 8, 2014

just-me said:

1) Acts 13:6 mentions a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet. The author of Acts, Luke, is the one calling this man Jewish. Obviously, Luke wasn't referring to his faith because he wasn't "in" the faith of Abraham, he was a false prophet. But he was Jewish in the sense that he was biologically a descendant of Judah, just as we would call someone today a Palestinian, Indian or African. Jew is used here as an ethnicity, not as a faith, for the Jewish faith is against sorcery and false prophesying. The same meaning is implied of one's (not just ethnicity, but) nationality in Acts 10:28. Romans 1:16 speaks of salvation coming to the Jew first, then to the Greek. This makes no sense if "Jew" in this verse means a true believer was already saved. Salvation is coming in this verse to the Jew and the Greek who are not yet saved but in need of this Gospel. So here again Jew means a race just as Greek means a race. The Jews in John 7:1 were not believers, so Jew doesn't always mean a believer in contrast to a Gentile meaning an unbeliever.

2) John 2:13 must also apply to proselytes because many in Israel who kept the Passover were not biological offspring of Judah or Abraham, nor were all twelve tribes descended from Judah. Judah was just one of the tribes. So the Jews here must be all those who kept the law of Moses, the example here being the Passover. In 1 Corinthians 9:20 it seems that the Jews are the ones Paul says are "under the law" of Moses, and the those that are "without" this law are the Gentiles. Indeed, Psalms 147:19-20 shows the law of Moses was not given to all nations, only Israel. Paul had to "become" like a Jew to gain the Jews, which means he obviously was not a Jew in that sense. Now surely Paul was not becoming like an unbeliever, was he? Nor was he changing his ethnicity, was he? So it could only mean that Paul had at times, to obey the law of Moses as a Jew would in order to gain those Jews, but he himself was not under that law.

A good example is Acts 21:18-32. Here Paul is accused, and rightly so (just read his letters) of teaching against the law of Moses. The elders in Jerusalem won't have it. They obviously have not yet received the revelation of God that Paul has received about the law coming to an end. So, should Paul stick out that he is right? No, he does the humble thing and submits to the authority of the elders, after all, it still isn't wrong to keep the law. So he takes men with a vow into the temple to have them cleansed ceremonially according to the law of Moses. But the Jews (not Christians) try to kill him. Here is a case where the elders believe in Jesus, but do not have the revelation Paul has that the law of Moses is abolished, so he humbles himself until God reveals this to them too. These Jews that try to kill Paul are obviously keepers of the law of Moses, but some of them are Christians - making them Messianic Jews (that would be the elders). That Paul does teach the end of the law is evidence from his own writings:

"Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the law of COMMANDMENTS." (Eph 2:15) Paul makes it plain that it is the law that was ABOLISHED.

3) Romans 2:28-29 obviously refers to a Jew being a true believer. His heart is circumcised. This applies to all Christians.

Yes, the law of Moses contained faith, but Galatians 4:23-25 tells us about ANOTHER faith that was not operating under that law. "BEFORE faith came, we were kept under the law" of Moses, showing that at that time the faith had not yet come. Now that "faith is come" we are no longer under that law. So there is some difference between the faith practiced under Moses' law, and that which Jesus brought when he came as a man. But this is a bit deep and is a long discussion of itself.

Daley · Apr 8, 2014

Zinzerio said:

What does arguing about the law do when quite clearly (Jesus says if you break the law you commit sin) ? Anyone feel free to answer and anyone who has not yest posted feel free to do so.

My stance is this and i urge brothers to find similar scripture because it causes hatred and innocent shedding of blood. (jonah 4:6-11)

I also urge brothers and sisters to pray for everyone here before continuing (you can not hate some one you pray for, (let us pray. Farther God we know that you put everything on are earth and we know you make footstools of are enemy so we have no need to hate because you do this for your children without even having to be asked.

We also know that are guardian looks in your face all the time who watches over and we know that no one can harm a child of God who lives in you and you in him dear farther.

Farther God is both the lion and the lamb that is the character of God The lamb is the innocent the lion is the one who protects innocence.

The lion is also has a beautiful character weep no more the lion of the tribe of Judah has won the victory revelation 5:5
when the enemy comes in like a flood the spirit of lord will put him to flight Isiah 59:19

The priests profane the sabbath and are blameless. How can it be a sin to break the sabbath if they are blameless? Matt 12:5

cfultz3 · Apr 8, 2014

Daley said:

Are you also including the moral laws or did Christ make peace between the Jews and Gentiles by abolishing that enmity between them which was caused by those laws which made Jews specifically Jews, those laws pertaining to sacrifice, where He became sacrifice, those laws of high priest, where He became the High Priest, those laws pertaining to the Holy of Holies, where He rent that veil?

iamsoandso · Apr 8, 2014

i truthfully believe that the two words used in scripture would help to understand the law of god both old and new. the words I'm speaking of are "TESTAMENT" which in most definitions means "WILL,OR THE DIRECT THINGS THE TESTIFIER IS CONVEYING ACROSS TO THOSE THEY ARE SPEAKING TO",,,,and then "COVENANT",in most definitions means that someone and the one whom is testifying or delivering "a testament" has made a covenant between the two to comply to the will of the given testament.

now maybe there are other definitions given in different bible dictionaries,and also at times where it was translated as such when it should mean a little different(would need to look at each instance). i will give an instance,,"thy (WILL) be done on earth as it is in heaven",,,which to me means that gods (will),the testament he gave in stating it,is one and the same as in heaven as in the earth among mankind. and that the "will or testament" he gave both to the members of heaven and mankind on earth.

Another instance is from (Mathew 26;28),,"for this is my blood of the new (testament/statement of will),which is shed for many for the remission of sins." so Christ himself make the comment that his blood is a statement of a (new),testament or will to be entered into by covenant/agreement by those who agree to accomplish it. also he uses the word "testament"(or it's translated that way,to convey the meaning that a statement of the (will of god) has been made.

Again in (Hebrews 9;15) it is said "and for this cause he is the mediator of the (new) testament/will,that by means of death,for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the (first) testament/will,they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance",,,now in this instance the author states "new testament",,and then "first testament",,,

I am not a great debater,i enjoy reading and following along watching you all discuss the different issues. i noticed that the different threads about the old/new resurface and i wondered why none has examined the meanings of the words in Greek or Hebrew,,namely "testament and covenant" at first they (in English) they seem straight forward.

here are some scriptures where the word "will" is used which is the same usage we consider as testament,,,,John 6;40,,Ephesians 1;5-12,,,,Ephesians 5;1-20,,,Ephesians 6;5-8,,,2 Corinthians 8;1-7,,,1 thess.5;11-18,,,1peter 2;15,,,1peter 4;1-7 and 19,,,colossians 1;9-12,,,collossians 4;12,,,1 john 2;15-17,,,romans 8;27-31,,,romans 12;1-21,,,romans 15;30-33,,,Hebrews 10;35-39,,,mark 3;35,,,Matthew 18;11-14,,,1 thess.4;1-8,,,ephesians 5;15-17,,,

Vaudeville · Apr 8, 2014

faith -
Job 19
25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;

Vaudeville · Apr 8, 2014

iamsoandso said:

i truthfully believe that the two words used in scripture would help to understand the law of god both old and new. the words I'm speaking of are "TESTAMENT" which in most definitions means "WILL,OR THE DIRECT THINGS THE TESTIFIER IS CONVEYING ACROSS TO THOSE THEY ARE SPEAKING TO",,,,and then "COVENANT",in most definitions means that someone and the one whom is testifying or delivering "a testament" has made a covenant between the two to comply to the will of the given testament.

now maybe there are other definitions given in different bible dictionaries,and also at times where it was translated as such when it should mean a little different(would need to look at each instance). i will give an instance,,"thy (WILL) be done on earth as it is in heaven",,,which to me means that gods (will),the testament he gave in stating it,is one and the same as in heaven as in the earth among mankind. and that the "will or testament" he gave both to the members of heaven and mankind on earth.

Another instance is from (Mathew 26;28),,"for this is my blood of the new (testament/statement of will),which is shed for many for the remission of sins." so Christ himself make the comment that his blood is a statement of a (new),testament or will to be entered into by covenant/agreement by those who agree to accomplish it. also he uses the word "testament"(or it's translated that way,to convey the meaning that a statement of the (will of god) has been made.

Again in (Hebrews 9;15) it is said "and for this cause he is the mediator of the (new) testament/will,that by means of death,for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the (first) testament/will,they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance",,,now in this instance the author states "new testament",,and then "first testament",,,

I am not a great debater,i enjoy reading and following along watching you all discuss the different issues. i noticed that the different threads about the old/new resurface and i wondered why none has examined the meanings of the words in Greek or Hebrew,,namely "testament and covenant" at first they (in English) they seem straight forward.

here are some scriptures where the word "will" is used which is the same usage we consider as testament,,,,John 6;40,,Ephesians 1;5-12,,,,Ephesians 5;1-20,,,Ephesians 6;5-8,,,2 Corinthians 8;1-7,,,1 thess.5;11-18,,,1peter 2;15,,,1peter 4;1-7 and 19,,,colossians 1;9-12,,,collossians 4;12,,,1 john 2;15-17,,,romans 8;27-31,,,romans 12;1-21,,,romans 15;30-33,,,Hebrews 10;35-39,,,mark 3;35,,,Matthew 18;11-14,,,1 thess.4;1-8,,,ephesians 5;15-17,,,

the unilateral covenant with God swore by himself an oath, is the promise to abraham of a savior for the world. it's the same covenant God repeats many times, for example to jeremiah. I WILL he says. I WILL.
not IF you, then I WILL per the mosaic covenant.

Zinzerio · Apr 8, 2014

Daley said:

I don't mind people discussing the law so please don't get me wrong or see me as a bad preacher looking to be putting people down or looking to be perfect.

I am not a preacher but i do want the truth and for 2 years many peoples beliefs have totally confused me because i only knew bit about the lord before i came here, but now i know and i know what Jesuses truth is.
He says if you love me you will keep my commandments.

The only problemi have now is people arguing against Jesus law and not discussing it.
And the arguing is not real a pleasant debate it is more slaying and more who is the better me or you.

when Gods gives you mercy it is like this
Jonah 4:6-11

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the Lord God provided a leafy plant[SUP][a][/SUP] and made it grow up over Jonah to give shade for his head to ease his discomfort, and Jonah was very happy about the plant. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But at dawn the next day God provided a worm, which chewed the plant so that it withered. [SUP]8 [/SUP]When the sun rose, God provided a scorching east wind, and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die, and said, ‘It would be better for me to die than to live.’
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But God said to Jonah, ‘Is it right for you to be angry about the plant?’
‘It is,’ he said. ‘And I’m so angry I wish I were dead.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the Lord said, ‘You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left – and also many animals?

The moral is many receive but many do not give back.
straight away after they receive a gift instead of giving back they scowl and are ungrateful, after that some realize they have been ungrateful and they come back to the lord, and that my hope for everyone. God bless and i will leave with this as im of to the watch noah
Matthew 28:18-20

New International Version - UK (NIVUK)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’ god bless

Grandpa · Apr 8, 2014

cfultz3 said:

That's exactly my point. If you are working at being moral according to the law, aren't you under the law still?

And if you are under the law is that walk pleasing to God? And if that is so then what was the point of Christ coming?

Or are you saying that there is a walk for legalists and a different separate walk for Christians???

Grandpa · Apr 8, 2014

cfultz3 said:

Do you mean the 10 commandments, the moral law, the Ministry of Death written on Stones?

Yes. Christ absolutely abolished the enmity between us and God, and us and the 10 commandments. By His Power. By the Power of the Cross.

Not by our superior understanding and better law keeping abilities, or discernment at being better people.

Hoffco · Apr 8, 2014

I was born a Gentile and will die a Gentile; but when I gave my heart to Jesus in faith, I became part of the spiritual seed of Abraham, by faith in Christ. How can a person be moral without keeping the Moral laws of Christ? One can not be a Christian without keeping and loving the morals laws of Christ. God's moral laws are still in force for us today. If anyone argues over this fact, they are ignorant of the truth. Love to all, Hoffco

Grandpa · Apr 8, 2014

Karraster said:

How were you saved?

I was saved by Christ. He saved me even though I couldn't perform the law. That is good news. He is the friend of sinners.

I point legalists, and everyone else, back to Christ. I don't tell anyone that the 10 commandments are done away with because they are not. I only tell legalists and judaizers that Grace Saved Christians are no longer under the 10 Commandments because we have something Much Better Now.

2 Corinthians 3:5-11
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The 10 commandments written on stone are the ministration of Condemnation and Death. Because they are bad or wrong? No. Because we don't have any power to keep them. They are a description of the work of the Holy Spirit.

So if you are really so concerned about anyone "keeping" the law then you should point them to Christ. Because His Power is the only power that keeps them or can keep them.

To point Saved Christians back to the law is to tell them to turn away from Grace and the Power of Christ and begin to be entangled again in the yoke of bondage. Attempting to fulfill by their works that which has already been fulfilled, thereby nullifying faith.

This is a really simple concept. Which is better and which do you prefer; The Power of Christ or your own strength?

Grandpa · Apr 8, 2014

Hoffco said:

I was born a Gentile and will die a Gentile; but when I gave my heart to Jesus in faith, I became part of the spiritual seed of Abraham, by faith in Christ. How can a person be moral without keeping the Moral laws of Christ? One can not be a Christian without keeping and loving the morals laws of Christ. God's moral laws are still in force for us today. If anyone argues over this fact, they are ignorant of the truth. Love to all, Hoffco

Which of the moral laws can you keep without the Power of Christ?

cfultz3 · Apr 8, 2014

Grandpa said:

That's exactly my point. If you are working at being moral according to the law, aren't you under the law still?

And if you are under the law is that walk pleasing to God? And if that is so then what was the point of Christ coming?

Or are you saying that there is a walk for legalists and a different separate walk for Christians???

How do we walk with the Spirit?

cfultz3 · Apr 8, 2014

Grandpa said:

All of them, but that means nothing apart from having done them in conjunction with the Spirit. The moral law of God is written upon our hearts, as the Gentiles who have not the Law naturally do those things of the Law.

cfultz3 · Apr 8, 2014

Grandpa said:

If Christ came to abolish the morals of God, then He was a minister of lasciviousness. Yet, we have Christ saying that if we love then we do satisfy the Law of God. Yes, that same Law written upon the hearts of every man who enters into this world.

If God took the time to have written that Law upon our hearts, then we should seek why instead of trying to kill it. If God saw that it was important to have written His moral Laws upon our hearts, the same Law the Spirit speaks to us, the Law from Christ, that same Law which states that love satisfies God's moral Law, then it must be important for Him to have done so.

AM I JEW OR A GENTILE IF I KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS ?

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