Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[SeaBass]

Those who continue to believe in a work based salvation are occupied with the flesh and the carnality of man. They have to compare others with the what they believe the scripture teaches but it involves the flesh and knowing them that way. This is why works is important for them in understanding salvation of the soul. As mailmandan has brought out so beautifully in his response to Cassian that a man is justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom 3:24).

Again, can one who does not do the works of belieivng, repenting, confessing and submitting to baptism for remssion of sins be saved? In other words, you are essentially arguing that the unbeliever, the impenitent, the denier of Christ, the one lost in his unforgiven/unremitted sins is saved.

READ THIS AGAIN 'The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* James here is discussing the proof of faith (I will show you my faith by my works - (James 2:18) not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that comes by faith.

No one here that I have seen has arued they can be saved by works of merit. As seen in ROm 10:3 there is a difference in works of merit that do not save and submitting/obeying the righteous commands of God that does save.

You cannot say one one had that "faith alone" saves but then say "yet the faith that justifies is never alone" for it is a contradiction. A faith that saves cannot be alone and not alone at the same time.

I would like to add a few things to this great paragraph above, that the first fruit of the sinner's life is when he believed and God imputed and put on the sinner's account over (60) specific things through faith without the believer even realizing what God had done. If any wants, I will start a thread and mention them with chapter and verse with all the verbs associated. It all was imputed to the believing sinner the moment he agreed with the gospel and believed and it is all that is needed to inherit eternal life. What God wants to do through that vessel He has redeemed is to bear the fruit of that salvation by working out what He has imputed within the soul of the believer. He wants the believer to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ and how to walk by faith in the promises of God. He wants him to know that if he falls he will not be utterly cast down for God is able to make him stand. God wants him to know and realize through trials, persecutions and testings that He will never leave him or forsake him at anytime and there is nothing that he could do or that could happen to him that would separate him from the love that God has for him. No man, religion or ungodly influence will be able to pluck him out of the Father's or the Son's hand, which will always uphold him in God's righteousness (Isaiah 41:10).

Can you show me the verse that says "belief alone" gets one sins repented of, that "belief alone" confesses Christ, that "belief alone" remits sins? James says the devils believe, so do the devils have these 60 things you speak of imputed unto them? If not, why?

 

[78jon]

That all sounds complicated. Like a mole hill turned into a mountain.

 

[SeaBass]

That all sounds complicated. Like a mole hill turned into a mountain.

What is complicated?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is complicated?

maybe you do not get what you are claiming, it is complicated, because it is a gospel of works. you twist a few words to make it sound religious and like something from God. But the people see though it..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That all sounds complicated. Like a mole hill turned into a mountain.

it is, because he is trying to add his own works. and making them sound like they are not works.. yet making it be sure we muct have works.. then again...... I will be honest. I lost track of it myself..

 

[notuptome]

The spiritual men, the inspired writers of the bible wrote down the revelations they received from the Holy Spirit so us natural men can read and understand. God's word was reveled by the end of the first century with John writing Revelation. So there are no spiritual men today endowed with the miraculous to receive revelations from God. We are all natural men, as the Ephesians, who could read and understand the writings of Paul Eph 3:3,4

Finally, the Calvinist view of this context makes God morally culpable. For instance, note this declaration from A.T. Robertson. This Baptist scholar argued that the “mind of the flesh” does not possess ability “to receive the things of the Spirit untouched by the Spirit. Certainly the initiative comes from God whose Holy Spirit makes it possible for us to accept the things of the Spirit of God” (Word Pictures in the New Testament,Nashville: Broadman, 1931, IV, p. 89).

If this position is true, whose fault is it if the “unregenerate” man never accesses the “things of God”?

Has nothing whatsoever to do with Christians being Spiritual and not natural or carnal. Scripture tells us that holy men of God were moved by the Holy Spirit to write the scriptures. this so we would know that it was not them but God writing the scriptures. We who are Christians are led by Gods Spirit to understand and know the truth of the scriptures, Unsaved men cannot understand these things. the unsaved cannot understand why God would send His beloved Son to die on the cross for the sins of mankind. It makes no logical sense but in Spiritual terms it is seen as the only possible resolution to the separation cause by sin.

I have no interest in attempting to explain the many misunderstandings of Calvinism especially to men whom I question about their understanding of the gospel. Mercy and grace have little meaning to those who go about to establish their own righteousness and reject the righteousness of God. Religious but lost.

When I came to Christ I knew nothing of all these religious terms like Calvinism, cessationism, baptismal regeneration, Pentecostalism, preterism and the list goes on and on. I did know that I was a sinner and that I could not do anything on my own good enough to merit heaven. I heard the gospel say I could be forgiven if I came to Christ and asked Him to forgive me and save me from my sins. I believed in the Christ Who lived without sin, Who died and rose again and lives eternally with God the Father in heaven. I had no problem accepting that the bible is the inspired word of God and that it is completely trustworthy in matters relating to God and eternity.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Cassian]

maybe you do not get what you are claiming, it is complicated, because it is a gospel of works. you twist a few words to make it sound religious and like something from God. But the people see though it..

If it was a gospel of works, then every good moral person would be saved. There are many unbelievers who do more good works than believers.
If not done in faith, or through faith, then it is worthless works. Works not done is sin and if unconfessed, can condemn a man because he will not be IN Christ. Or the better understood one, if no fruit, one will be hewn down and cast into the fire. Does not sound like salvation to me.

 

[Nick1939]

Ok, so I'm guessing, that IF NECESSARY, YOU would DEFINE BREATHING AS A WORK?

Goodness....................Tell me EXACTLY IS NOT A WORK? IS THERE ANYTHING UNDER THE HEAVENS THAT IS NOT A WORK in your mind?

You trust in your "works," I'll trust in GRACE.....................let's see what the results are............

Let me help to put an end to the argument by let James 2;14-26 but particularly v 18.

But someone will say , you have faith , and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... I don't think here is any room for argument, unless one shows a dead faith....God Bless...

 

[notuptome]

Let me help to put an end to the argument by let James 2;14-26 but particularly v 18.

But someone will say , you have faith , and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works... I don't think here is any room for argument, unless one shows a dead faith....God Bless...

Oh that it were so simple. I suspect that some here will argue until the Lord returns and those who are left still will find a way to contest with God over grace and works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[mailmandan]

2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"

In Romans 10:16, we read: *But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16).

Must one believe to be saved, Jn 8:24?

We must believe to be saved but if we don't believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God (John 8:24), then how can we believe (trust) exclusively in Christ for salvation? (Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-26). Saving faith is more than just believing "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving faith trusts completely in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16).

Repent, Lk 13:3,5?

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side, change of mind about your sinful position and need for a Savior---new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ alone for salvation. You place repentance after faith. Your theory gives rise to the reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith in salvation. To the contrary we find the following verses: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. Acts 20:21 - Repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Confess, Mt 10:32,33?

The broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him alone for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father. Confession is not forced or legalistic for a genuine child of God.

Be baptized, Mk 16:16?

He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation (just ask the thief on the cross). Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus Himself not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES *What happened to baptism?

Yes, one must do these "rituals" or whatever you would like to call them for the unbeliever, the impenitent, the denier of Christ who is lost in his unforgiven sins cannot be saved without doing this "ritual".

Where does the Bible say that whoever is NOT water baptized will NOT be saved? If a list of additional requirements (rituals, works) must be accomplished after one believes the gospel in order to become saved, then why does God make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who "BELIEVE"? (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:25-26; 4:5; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You are forced to either take these complete statements about salvation through belief/faith and turn them into incomplete statements then patch them together with verses that you believe teach salvation through rituals and works or else simply "shoe horn" rituals and works into belief/faith. Either method would be flawed hermeneutics.

Jn 14:15 If ye love me Keep my commandments. Christ's commandments are a code of law that one must obey in order to love Christ, to keep from being a lawbreaker. John said transgression of the law is sin, so not keeping "law of code" is sin.

Who keeps His commandments? Saved believers or lost unbelievers? 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 1 John 2:4 - He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Do you perfectly obey the whole law? Are you sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? We love Christ because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). We receive the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5) who was given to us when we BELIEVED the gospel (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13) and we then became new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). We don't just conjure up genuine agape love in our flesh apart from saving faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit.

EPh 2:10; 1 Jn 3:17 Matt 25:32ff - AFTER one becomes a Christian, he must do good works to maintain his salvation.

How do works maintain our salvation? So how many works must we accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? Good works neither attain or maintain our salvation. From beginning (have been saved through faith - Ephesians 2:8) to end (receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls - 1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith in Christ. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save us. Jesus needs no supplements.

The Christian cannot go thru his life doing evil, unrighteous works and expect to be saved.

So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "good enough"? It sounds like you are depending on your performance to help Jesus save you. Is that faith in Christ or faith in self? John makes it clear about those who are born of God, regardless of what people claim: - 1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. This does not mean that Christians are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time.

You quoted many false teachers here. Show me from the BIBLE where Christ or one of His apostles said salvation comes by a dead faith only.

The point of quoting these church fathers was not to establish whether or not they are false teachers but to establish that "faith alone" was not invented by the reformers. It was taught prior to the reformation. Who said that salvation comes by a dead faith only? What a genuine believer means by salvation through "faith (IN CHRIST) alone" and what James means by "faith only" is NOT the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. James is talking about the "kind" of faith that remains "alone" (solitary, unfruitful, barren) and demonstrates that it's a dead faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Good works prove or manifest the genuineness of our faith (James 2:14-18). I will SHOW you my faith by my works. Saving faith trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation, which causes us to be made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8) and results in producing good works (Ephesians 2:10) so faith is not alone in that sense but it trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works righteousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If it was a gospel of works, then every good moral person would be saved. There are many unbelievers who do more good works than believers.
If not done in faith, or through faith, then it is worthless works. Works not done is sin and if unconfessed, can condemn a man because he will not be IN Christ. Or the better understood one, if no fruit, one will be hewn down and cast into the fire. Does not sound like salvation to me.

This is far from true.

A non believer can not do good works. All he can do is works of sin, Even if an unbeliever would give money to the poor (a seemingly good work) it would be a futile work. Because it would be self motivated (or carnal)

You can do a bilion good works. of faith or not of faith. and it still would not remove the penalty for one sin.

 

[T-REX]

In Romans 10:16, we read: *But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" We can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16).



We must believe to be saved but if we don't believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God (John 8:24), then how can we believe (trust) exclusively in Christ for salvation? (Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 3:24-26). Saving faith is more than just believing "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving faith trusts completely in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16).



The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Where salvation is in view, repentance actually precedes saving faith in Christ and is not a totally separate act from faith. It is actually the same coin with two sides. Repentance is on one side, change of mind about your sinful position and need for a Savior---new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ alone for salvation. You place repentance after faith. Your theory gives rise to the reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith in salvation. To the contrary we find the following verses: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel. Acts 20:21 - Repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.



The broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him alone for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father. Confession is not forced or legalistic for a genuine child of God.



He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation (just ask the thief on the cross). Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus Himself not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES *What happened to baptism?



Where does the Bible say that whoever is NOT water baptized will NOT be saved? If a list of additional requirements (rituals, works) must be accomplished after one believes the gospel in order to become saved, then why does God make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who "BELIEVE"? (John 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:25-26; 4:5; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 1 John 5:13 etc..). You are forced to either take these complete statements about salvation through belief/faith and turn them into incomplete statements then patch them together with verses that you believe teach salvation through rituals and works or else simply "shoe horn" rituals and works into belief/faith. Either method would be flawed hermeneutics.



Who keeps His commandments? Saved believers or lost unbelievers? 1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 1 John 2:4 - He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Do you perfectly obey the whole law? Are you sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? We love Christ because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). We receive the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Romans 5:5) who was given to us when we BELIEVED the gospel (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; Ephesians 1:13) and we then became new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). We don't just conjure up genuine agape love in our flesh apart from saving faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit.



How do works maintain our salvation? So how many works must we accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us? Good works neither attain or maintain our salvation. From beginning (have been saved through faith - Ephesians 2:8) to end (receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls - 1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith in Christ. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save us. Jesus needs no supplements.



So where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "good enough"? It sounds like you are depending on your performance to help Jesus save you. Is that faith in Christ or faith in self? John makes it clear about those who are born of God, regardless of what people claim: - 1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. This does not mean that Christians are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time.



The point of quoting these church fathers was not to establish whether or not they are false teachers but to establish that "faith alone" was not invented by the reformers. It was taught prior to the reformation. Who said that salvation comes by a dead faith only? What a genuine believer means by salvation through "faith (IN CHRIST) alone" and what James means by "faith only" is NOT the same message. Don't let the word "alone" fool you. James is talking about the "kind" of faith that remains "alone" (solitary, unfruitful, barren) and demonstrates that it's a dead faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Good works prove or manifest the genuineness of our faith (James 2:14-18). I will SHOW you my faith by my works. Saving faith trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation, which causes us to be made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8) and results in producing good works (Ephesians 2:10) so faith is not alone in that sense but it trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works righteousness.

So if it is a bare profession of faith then it must be missing something right? i mean if faith alone,in and of itself,can't save you then there must be something more right? I mean if the word is God breathed,not made for interpretation by man ,then He means what he says' right. so the "work" required is shown and made clear by approved example WITH the direct command right?James 2:13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. Faith and Works
14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[mailmandan]

So if it is a bare profession of faith then it must be missing something right?

It's missing works that show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed by the individual is genuine. Works do not cause our faith to be alive, they show that our faith is alive. Our faith is made alive in Christ by grace through faith then unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). A dead faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith; just as a dead tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree but BECAUSE it's a living tree.

 

[Cassian]

mailmandan,

How do works maintain our salvation? So how many works must we accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us?

I see this statement a lot, which might be the very reason proponents of "faith only" do not understand the play of faith, works and grace.
Christ DID NOT save you as an individual on the Cross. His work on the Cross has absolutely nothing directly to do with the works of faith. Christ's work saved the world, every human being from death and sin. He freed mankind from the bondage to death and sin, Heb 2:14. This work is the Gift of mercy and love to the world. Rom 5:14,18; I Cor 15:22. It is the meaning of being saved by grace. Man has absolutely nothing to do with what Christ did on the Cross. He cannot change it, add to it, cannot affect it in any way. Your works of faith has NOTHING to do with what Christ did for us.
What we do as believers is the work that man was created to do. It is one of the reasons that Christ saved the world from death and sin. God created us for a purpose. That purpose was precluded by the condemnation of death through Adam.
Now you want God supposedly to do all the work that He created you to do with Him. Adam was deceived but nevertheless, Satan enticed him to think that he could do the work alone. Now you are enticed, deceived to do nothing or think that the work is meaningless and one's salvation is just a matter of believing, faith alone.

If you actually understood this paragraph you wrote.....

This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Good works prove or manifest the genuineness of our faith (James 2:14-18). I will SHOW you my faith by my works. Saving faith trusts in Christ "alone" for salvation, which causes us to be made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8) and results in producing good works (Ephesians 2:10) so faith is not alone in that sense but it trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works righteousness.

You are saying exactly what I and a few others are saying. Faith and works cannot be separated. No works, means no faith. Are you being saved by faith or works? You are being saved through faith, which is reconciled/justified by works. Thus it is the works for which you will give an account, not your faith.
James could not have explained it any better, but you still want to deny the works that are necessary to have a saving faith rather than a dead faith. The works are the very content of your faith.
If you want to say, faith alone in Christ, you would also be correct.

 

[Cassian]

This is far from true.

A non believer can not do good works. All he can do is works of sin, Even if an unbeliever would give money to the poor (a seemingly good work) it would be a futile work. Because it would be self motivated (or carnal)

You can do a bilion good works. of faith or not of faith. and it still would not remove the penalty for one sin.

You really do have an understanding problem. Yes, they would be sin but they are still good works, or are you going to call the evil works? That is the ONLY difference between a believer and an unbeliever.

The problem with the faith only theory is that you have elminated the very works that are necessary for ones personal salvation. You make them no better than an unbeliever because they are anterior to ones faith. They are incidental. I have heard many say that one can never lose ones salvation, but can break the relationship. Really? What do these people think saves them but the relationship. Being out of a relationship with Christ is being out of Christ, the same position as an unbeliever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You really do have an understanding problem. Yes, they would be sin but they are still good works, or are you going to call the evil works? That is the ONLY difference between a believer and an unbeliever.

No, God calls them evil work. Also known as Human Good. Or self righteousness. Which is sin.

And a child of God can produce human good.

The problem with the faith only theory is that you have elminated the very works that are necessary for ones personal salvation.

Wrong. Saved by grace apart from works. So that no ne may boast. You are the one with an understanding problem.

You also do not understand what faith is. There is NO SUCH THING AS FAITH APART FROM WORKS. A DEAD FAITH IS NO FATH AT ALL, IT IS A PSEUDO OR FALSE FAITH. which will save NO ONE (also called mere belief)

You make them no better than an unbeliever because they are anterior to ones faith.

A person who does not have faith is no better than an unbeliever, he still has not had faith, he has only trusted.

They are incidental. I have heard many say that one can never lose ones salvation, but can break the relationship. Really? What do these people think saves them but the relationship. Being out of a relationship with Christ is being out of Christ, the same position as an unbeliever.

lol.. A child of God is his child. God does not kick him out of his family. he did not adopt a child paid for by his sons death only to kick them out when they mess up.

 

[Cassian]

It's missing works that show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed by the individual is genuine. Works do not cause our faith to be alive, they show that our faith is alive. Our faith is made alive in Christ by grace through faith then unto good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). A dead faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith; just as a dead tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree but BECAUSE it's a living tree.

If you understand what you wrote here then you are not longer in the "faith only" crowd. You understand what scripture says reguarding faith and works, the works of faith.

 

[Elin]

• Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).
• Ignatius: "His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). Note: "muniments" are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.
• Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).
• Justin Martyr: "No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). "God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).
• Ireneus: "Through the obedience of one man who first was born from the Virgin, many should be justified and receive salvation.
• Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham.
• Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."
• Ambrose: "Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his "faith is imputed for righteousness" as also it was to Abraham."
• Origen: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."
• Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."
• Chrysostom: "What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous...it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works...but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away."
• Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed."
• Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."
• Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."
• Anselm: "Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin."
• Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."

You quoted many false teachers here.

The only false teacher quoted here is you.

Show me from the BIBLE where Christ or one of His apostles said salvation comes by a dead faith only.

It follows the verse that states God loves sin.

 

[Cassian]

No, God calls them evil work. Also known as Human Good. Or self righteousness. Which is sin.

whether a work is sin is not the issue. If you have an unbelieving nurse taking care of a sick person, and a believer who is on the second shift for the same person, you are calling one's work evil and the other work good. You are little confused here. They are both good works, but because one is doing it in faith for a fellow human being, it is being done to the least of His creatures.

And a child of God can produce human good.

If I understand you here that is a contradiction to what you just stated. This would be self righteousness.

Wrong. Saved by grace apart from works. So that no ne may boast. You are the one with an understanding problem.

NO, because this phrase does not even address the topic of even being a believer. All men have been saved by Christ apart from works. All men were given life, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22.

You also do not understand what faith is. There is NO SUCH THING AS FAITH APART FROM WORKS. A DEAD FAITH IS NO FATH AT ALL, IT IS A PSEUDO OR FALSE FAITH. which will save NO ONE (also called mere belief)

Precisely, which is why faith without works is dead, empty, meaningless. null and void faith. So you seem to be vasilating between the two positions here. Just what do you believe, faith ONLY, or faith, justified by works?

A person who does not have faith is no better than an unbeliever, he still has not had faith, he has only trusted.

agreed.

lol.. A child of God is his child. God does not kick him out of his family. he did not adopt a child paid for by his sons death only to kick them out when they mess up.

First, He tasted death for every one. He saved everyone from death and sin.
But now lets get to the topic. If you deny Him, He will deny YOU. What do you think that means. Or if you do not keep my commandments you are NOT part of me. I can assure you that you will not be saved unless you fulfil your commitments and obligations as a creature who can freely choose to be IN Christ or chose to deny Him at any time. He is not going to save someone in spite of their denial.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

whether a work is sin is not the issue. If you have an unbelieving nurse taking care of a sick person, and a believer who is on the second shift for the same person, you are calling one's work evil and the other work good. You are little confused here. They are both good works, but because one is doing it in faith for a fellow human being, it is being done to the least of His creatures.

[/quote]

Our righteousness (good works) are as filthy rags If you think you are going to hand God your good deeds, and he will save you for them, you do not know God at all

If I understand you here that is a contradiction to what you just stated. This would be self righteousness.

Yes it is self righteousness, And a child of God can produce self righteousness. Anything you do for self gain is self righteousness.

NO, because this phrase does not even address the topic of even being a believer. All men have been saved by Christ apart from works. All men were given life, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22.

Take your universalism elsewhere please, your new age doctrine is not pleasing to God.

agreed.

then why do you argue one can have faith. And never do any work?

First, He tasted death for every one. He saved everyone from death and sin.

No. He paid the penalty of sin for everyone, He never paid the penalty for the sin of unbelief thus not everyone is saved, or ever has been saved.

But now lets get to the topic. If you deny Him, He will deny YOU.

Peter denyd him, Did he deny Peter?? Did he make Peter repent? Or do works to make up for his sin?

No he showed true unconditional forgiveness.

Peter do you love me, Take care of my flock.

Something most people can not fathom

What do you think that means. Or if you do not keep my commandments you are NOT part of me. I can assure you that you will not be saved unless you fulfil your commitments and obligations as a creature who can freely choose to be IN Christ or chose to deny Him at any time. He is not going to save someone in spite of their denial.

lol..

If I realy deny him (not in speach as peter did, But in mind) I am an antichrist. And as John said, I WAS NEVER SAVED.