Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?

[Stephen63]

I as a moderator and administrator on another forum also know what you are saying, and you have no business getting involved with moderation of this forum, influence of infraction etc, you have no right but to be another user, respect this forums rules just like everyone else, that's it.

Seems to me a "so-called" Admin is projecting himself on another person.

BTW, you'd be surprised what a plain member with a decent rep. could accomplish.

 

[Stephen63]

11:50 EST, 3 members, 20 guests

 

[TaylorTG]

@Alligator

I realize you're only 16, but I think you still know better than to make a post like that.

Yes sir. Of course.


@Shava

Why do you feel that my post brings you to say that?

Hello mam. It's a pleasure to meet you.

This looks like a confidential thread. If it's not too much to ask, how is the playing of instruments during public mass an act of rebellion against the Lord?



~~~~~

With dear respects,

Taylor ​

 

[Tintin]

Apologized? how about reinstating the one he had part in getting banned for posting scripture?

People are banned for good reason. LT had nothing to do with their banning.

 

[Link]

I never said they didn't have instruments, so where are you getting that from. Psalms also have singing. The N.T. says three times to use psalms, we are, in singing. Again I haven't a clue where you got that I said instruments didn't go with psalms, but did you forget that singing also goes with psalms.

So then do you approve of the playing of instruments as we sing Psalms?

 

[Link]

I'd like to point out that the word most often translated 'worship' in the New Testament (and the parallel word in the Old Testament) actually refers to prostration, bowing down with one's head to the ground or floor.

When John 'worshipped' the angel in the KJV, he was actually bowing down. We think 'worship' means acknowledging as God, or a doing certain things to honor God, or singing, or going through a church liturgy. If you look at the NIV, in one verse, they translate a word as 'worship' and elsewhere it is 'bow down.'

I'd like to point out that the purpose of church gatherings is not to 'proskuneo.' We don't have any examples of people 'proskuneo' in church that I can think of, though the unbeliever who falls on his face in a hypothetical scenario where all prophesy might be said to 'proskuneo' in church, though the word isn't used.

In Revelation, the elders did 'worship' with harps in their hands. So you might say worship (prostrating) and musical instruments have some relationship in this heavenly vision. Maybe the elders 'worship' with musical instruments in heaven a lot, holding them in their hands as they bow down, like in the vision.

 

[Link]

T-Rex, Shava, Jabberjaw,

I'll respond to some of your thoughts about things being needed to be 'authorized' in the New Testament, and practices from the Old Testament not being allowed.

First of all, it is not against the New Testament to keep the law of Moses. When Paul went to Jerusalem, James pointed out the multitude who were zealous for the law of Moses. Yes, early Christians were zealous for the law of Moses. The earliest Christians were Jewish. They kept the Jewish feasts. They participated in the temple activities. Acts says that many of the priests were obedient to the faith. Priests were the guys who did things like offer incense and sacrifice animals in the temple. But, in spite of that, they were obedient to the faith.

It is not unlawful for a Jew to keep the law, even as a Christian. Even Paul participated in temple ceremonies.

So obeying the Psalms is not forbidden. And facts about God and what is right and wrong in the Old Testament are still true. When Psalms teaches that it is good to sing praise to the Lord with the lyre and harp, that is a fact, and it still is good.

Also, this theory that you have to throw out the Old Testament and you are only allowed to use it if the apostles let you know that by specifically authorizing the use of a particular passage by quoting that passage in the New Testament is false. It contradicts Paul's statement that all scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, etc. Just a few verses later, he was talking about the scriptures Timothy grew up with. That was what we call the 'Old Testament', not the New Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures are profitable for doctrine. That is what Paul told Timothy.

This whole theory you have, this Regulative Principle of Worship on Steroids, you are promoting is based on the Old Testament. it's based on Nadab and Abihu. John Knox preached the Nadab and Abihu message to the Scots, and the Scottish preachers, the Campbells, had a great influence on the churches that believe as you do.

You are assuming that principles from the tabernacle apply to meetings of the congregation. Even in the Old Testament, the tabernacle and the church, the congregation, aren't the same thing. The congregation can meet outside the tabernacle and do things that aren't a part of the tabernacle practices.

The Bible never commands 'sing only and do not use musical instruments.' That is not a command of New Testament scripture. You can show us where the Bible says speak, or sing. But don't pretend like it says "Don't use musical instruments." If you want to talk about the validity of how you apply your version of the Regulative Principle, that makes more sense. But the verses you quote don't say not to use instruments.

 

[presidente]

When God command gopher wood to build the ark, could Noah use gopher wood and oak yet still do what God said? No. Noah would have CHANGED what God said by ADDING to what God said just like ADDING to an order is CHANGING the order.
Tell me what supernatural gifts have you seen before.

I've witnessed a little healing, lots of words and knowledge and prophecies.

Several days ago, I was eating a meal someone cooked for the church after a Bible study. A brother there told my wife about seeing her in a dream at a certain location, the part of town and the very intersection of a place we were planning on starting a ministry." Today, I was going to take my family with me to do some ministry, and I was going to preach on a public access channel. Three of the children were sick, two with the sniffles, and one with fever and vomiting. We prayed for them and they got better. I even asked the older one if she felt sick at all and she said no. The little toddler doesn't have mucous running out of her nose like it was before, and the one who'd been vomiting felt fine, ate food and played on the playground after the recording sessions were done.

I've seen a lot of prophecies and words of knowledge that couldn't be explained by natural means. I've also had situations where I've prayed to God to speak to my wife, and she'd tell me what God told her.

One time I had some rather detailed prayer requests with between 6 and 8 requests and asked God to speak them to her, things about my wife I wanted to tell her but the conversation didn't go anywhere. A couple of nights later, she told me what the Lord had spoken to her, and went through my prayer requests, but with much greater detail. And that brought about a huge change in her and in our marriage. She's probably got a lot of things like that she prays for about me, too.

I started getting words of knowledge back in my 20's when I'd spend lengthy periods of time praying with people. I'd get stuff to pray for about them. And people pray for would say things like, "How did you know I was adopted." I didn't. But I just prayed the words I was getting to pray. I've had an experience where I got something specific to pray and it happened a few minutes later. I'd prayed out loud so one of my friends there was kind of shocked. I've also had experiences recently where I'd get some words of knowledge for people, but someone else would prophesy the same thing over the person before I had a chance to share it.

 

[Shava]

T-Rex, Shava, Jabberjaw,

I'll respond to some of your thoughts about things being needed to be 'authorized' in the New Testament, and practices from the Old Testament not being allowed.

First of all, it is not against the New Testament to keep the law of Moses. When Paul went to Jerusalem, James pointed out the multitude who were zealous for the law of Moses. Yes, early Christians were zealous for the law of Moses. The earliest Christians were Jewish. They kept the Jewish feasts. They participated in the temple activities. Acts says that many of the priests were obedient to the faith. Priests were the guys who did things like offer incense and sacrifice animals in the temple. But, in spite of that, they were obedient to the faith.

It is not unlawful for a Jew to keep the law, even as a Christian. Even Paul participated in temple ceremonies.

So obeying the Psalms is not forbidden. And facts about God and what is right and wrong in the Old Testament are still true. When Psalms teaches that it is good to sing praise to the Lord with the lyre and harp, that is a fact, and it still is good.

Also, this theory that you have to throw out the Old Testament and you are only allowed to use it if the apostles let you know that by specifically authorizing the use of a particular passage by quoting that passage in the New Testament is false. It contradicts Paul's statement that all scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, etc. Just a few verses later, he was talking about the scriptures Timothy grew up with. That was what we call the 'Old Testament', not the New Testament scriptures. The Old Testament scriptures are profitable for doctrine. That is what Paul told Timothy.

This whole theory you have, this Regulative Principle of Worship on Steroids, you are promoting is based on the Old Testament. it's based on Nadab and Abihu. John Knox preached the Nadab and Abihu message to the Scots, and the Scottish preachers, the Campbells, had a great influence on the churches that believe as you do.

You are assuming that principles from the tabernacle apply to meetings of the congregation. Even in the Old Testament, the tabernacle and the church, the congregation, aren't the same thing. The congregation can meet outside the tabernacle and do things that aren't a part of the tabernacle practices.

The Bible never commands 'sing only and do not use musical instruments.' That is not a command of New Testament scripture. You can show us where the Bible says speak, or sing. But don't pretend like it says "Don't use musical instruments." If you want to talk about the validity of how you apply your version of the Regulative Principle, that makes more sense. But the verses you quote don't say not to use instruments.

You're right and we're wrong, says YOU? Yes, one of us is wrong, because there can only be one right answer, but I'll have to skip on believing you for the simple fact that "I" believe you to be wrong. Your proof isn't good enough to change what I believe. Thank you though for sharing why you believe that instruments are to be used in worship.

 

[Shava]

So then do you approve of the playing of instruments as we sing Psalms?

O.T. times, yes, N.T. times, no.

 

[Shava]

@Alligator

Yes sir. Of course.


@Shava

Hello mam. It's a pleasure to meet you.

This looks like a confidential thread. If it's not too much to ask, how is the playing of instruments during public mass an act of rebellion against the Lord?



~~~~~

With dear respects,

Taylor ​

I'm a sir. Young man, God commands singing only, why I really don't know, but that's his choice and he backs it up with a command to make sure we do accordingly by giving us these commands, Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. Instruments were used in O.T. times and in heaven they speak of a harp, but the N.T. is what we are in right now, so this is what we need to go by. Some say these two verses do not imply commands for singing, so on goes the debate. I urge you to study and see for yourself what you think these verses mean.

 

[posthuman]

God commands singing only, why I really don't know, but that's his choice and he backs it up with a command to make sure we do accordingly by giving us these commands, Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16.

if you interpret those two verses as strict commands authorizing only singing & speaking as acceptable conversation among ourselves,
why do you continually disobey them and forsake to converse in psalms & spiritual songs? neither one of those verses authorizes speaking in anything but "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs"
either it's a strict command and what it does not say is not authorized - therefore you sin by not speaking in psalm
or it's a general encouragement and what it does not specifically state is not by implication forbidden.
and where is your rejoicing? where is your thanksgiving?
for the scripture says:

Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound:

they shall walk, O Lord, in the light of thy countenance.​

In thy name shall they rejoice all the day:

and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.​

For thou art the glory of their strength:

and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
​

(Psalm 89:15-17)

therefore i will make a joyful sound, and exalt the King, and rejoice in the freedom for which Jesus suffered!
this joy is our strength and the manifestation of thanksgiving for our redemption!

how is walking in condemnation of your brethren magnifying His name? tell me, if you have an answer, and tell me in hymn & spiritual song, if you obey His command.

 

[Jabberjaw]

People are banned for good reason. LT had nothing to do with their banning.

Oh really, lets see if there is not conspiring going on, LT says the following :

how am i getting connected to the ban?

i'm sorry that your friend said that expressing talents to glorify God is what kept the Israelites from salvation, and continues to keep people from salvation, but I didn't bait her into it.
If the mods thought she went too far, then that's on them, not me.

What mod would find anyone expressing talents a banable offense? where is that stated in the rules? I have seen it done already on this forum and nobody got banned until someone said it to LT who claims to be a mod on another site, see next quote:

I perhaps was out of line by saying it.
As a moderator on another forum, I do know what I was saying, but I had no right to say it in this thread.

Now lets look at LT's post below, who are he/they investigating? is he playing mod on this forum? or is he just conspiring with someone that is a mod on this forum :

so... the only 3 people who are supporting this idea of worship with instruments being sin, all joined in mid March of this year? 2 of them on the same day... looking through the chat, this looks like the work of one person. I excuse myself from any further discussion on this topic.

Now lets look at Link who suddenly appears, at the time of this post Link has only had 10 or less posts (looks like a mod playing user to me, or another user playing mod, don't forget I am an admin and know how to play the game)

so... the only 3 people who are supporting this idea of worship with instruments being sin, all joined in mid March of this year? 2 of them on the same day... looking through the chat, this looks like the work of one person. I excuse myself from any further discussion on this topic.

I don't think KSubblet is the other people, based on writing style and content. I think he does run google searches looking for dicussions. There could be multiple people doing that, or else someone could go to a friend on another forum and ask for posting help

Now tell me LT is not in on this as well as Link?

Looks to me there is a conspiracy going on, and anyone who goes against instrumental music is being searched out and like MsLimpet will be banned and it will just look like they all went away because there will nobody left to complain (as I am) including me.

I am saving this post, because if I get banned for this, I will post this on every christian forum I can find on the web.

MsLimpet should be reinstated because expressing opinion on talents used in worship service, or debating mechanical musical instruments, or quoting scripture is not a banable offense. We should (with her) be able to have respectable debates on IM as well any other doctrine that has caused division in the Lords church.

 

[Link]

You're right and we're wrong, says YOU? Yes, one of us is wrong, because there can only be one right answer, but I'll have to skip on believing you for the simple fact that "I" believe you to be wrong. Your proof isn't good enough to change what I believe. Thank you though for sharing why you believe that instruments are to be used in worship.

Okay, I see no answers for the specifics points made.

Here's a question, where is your authority from the New Testament scriptures for the doctrine you hold to that believers are not allowed to do anything [in church] unless it is specifically authorized in the New Testament scriptures? Where is your New Testament support for the idea that 'expedient' things are an exception?

Or is all or part of that a man-made doctrine?

 

[posthuman]

why am i the only one actually speaking to the rest of you in psalms? isn't the argument that we have a command here?
the mods are the mods and the rest of you aren't mods, and all authorities are put in place by God. there is a better thing we have before us which we ought to do:

While I live will I praise the Lord:
I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
(Psalm 146:2)

 

[Link]

Now lets look at Link who suddenly appears, at the time of this post Link has only had 10 or less posts (looks like a mod playing user to me, or another user playing mod, don't forget I am an admin and know how to play the game)

I'm not a moderator on this forum. I am on a completely different forum, but I've never played this game you are talking about. And I'm reading backwards at the last thread, kind of skipped over moderator complaint arguments in the last thread I read, and I'm not sure quite what I'm being accused of.

Now tell me LT is not in on this as well as Link?

I guess I'll have to go back and read to figure out what I'm supposed to be accused of. But I might just skip the topic all-together. I haven't seen KSubblet post, so I'm guessing he was banned. And you mentioned MsLimpet. I saw KSublett arguing against the trinity, or it seemed that way from my perspective, in another thread. My guess is that would be a more likely reason for a ban. They let people argue for dozens of pages about most other topics around here.

Looks to me there is a conspiracy going on, and anyone who goes against instrumental music is being searched out and like MsLimpet will be banned and it will just look like they all went away because there will nobody left to complain (as I am) including me.

I think KSubblett's conspiracy theory approach to the scriptures may be rubbing off on your world view a bit. I doubt they'd ban people for posting against instrumental music. I'm not a mod, but if I were, I'd be looking for reasons to ban KSublett. If posts attack Christians and saints in the Bible for doing something the Bible doesn't think is evil, and if the source of the posts seems kind of 'otherworldly', yeah, I might want to ban that. But I'm not a mod here.

My guess is you are more likely to get banned for attacking the moderators on a lot of forums. I'm not sure about here, but that's considered bad form on most forums, an some moderators ban for that or for trying to rally the forum against the moderators. I haven't faced that on anything I've moderated. But I've seen it on other forums. There is even a section for attacks against the forum.

I am saving this post, because if I get banned for this, I will post this on every christian forum I can find on the web.

Those kinds of attacks.

Maybe you need something else to do with your time if you are going to do that.

MsLimpet should be reinstated because expressing opinion on talents used in worship service, or debating mechanical musical instruments, or quoting scripture is not a banable offense. We should (with her) be able to have respectable debates on IM as well any other doctrine that has caused division in the Lords church.

Now I'm curious as to why she was banned.

 

[Link]

O.T. times, yes, N.T. times, no.

So if you happened to sing a Psalm while you played the drums at home, do you think you'd be sinning?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Now I'm curious as to why she was banned.

So is she and others, she was told "teaching heresy" what is that?

 

[LT]

why does my name keep coming up on this thread? Is this thread called "LT debated someone and they got banned, so let's troll him"?

please keep my name out of this. I didn't ban anyone, nor do I know any of the mods, except perhaps in brief debate/discussion/encouragement.

the topic is about instruments, not about who here is a tool.

 

[Nautilus]

the fact that this still exists as an actual discussion/thread is depressing.