Whom He will He hardeneth !

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Feb 21, 2014
5,672
18
0
#21
Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Good verse! We need to remember to stay humbled before God.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#22
The remnant of Jews are the ones that obeyed Peter in acts 2, and became spiritual Jews, Christians which are God's elect now, Rom 2:28,29
God has always had a remnant from the Jews ...again

Romans 11:2-5 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#23
God has always had a remnant from the Jews ...again

Romans 11:2-5 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:1 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."

Rom 11:2 "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,"

The "people which He (God) forknew" [v2] the people God had "not cast away" [v1] refers to Christians, not fleshly Israel. Paul tells us later Rom 11 that the fleshly Jews had been cast off, broken off and Gentiles had been grafted in.

In verse 1 Paul identifies himself as being born a fleshly Jew "I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" and contrasts that fleshly Jew to the Christian whom God foreknew.


So when Paul asks "Hath God cast away his people?"

This is a reference to Christians for the fleshly Jews had been cast off. But the fleshly Jews had not been cast off as to where they cannot be saved for Paul used himself as an example of a fleshly Jew who had been saved by converting to Christianity. So those fleshly Jews in Acts 2, who as Paul converted to Christianity, made up that remnant of fleshly Jews that became Christians, the ones God forknew. So anyone, fleshly Jew or Gentile, that becomes a Christian is then part of that people whom God foreknew > Christian.

So fleshly Israel as God's chosen people is over. Paul made an air-tight case on this in Romans 9.
 
Last edited:
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#24
seabass



Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !

But God did not, before the world began, uncondtionally, randomly fit people for destruction for some unknown reason.

1 Thess 2:14,15 the Jews disobeyed God fitting themselves for God's wrath.
 
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#25
But God did not, before the world began, uncondtionally, randomly fit people for destruction for some unknown reason.

1 Thess 2:14,15 the Jews disobeyed God fitting themselves for God's wrath.
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#26
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
It is against God's nature to force people to be sinners against their will. If God forces men to sin against their will, that makes God the ultimate sinner.
 
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#27
It is against God's nature to force people to be sinners against their will. If God forces men to sin against their will, that makes God the ultimate sinner.
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#28
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
It cannot be both for it is against the nature of God to force people to be sinners against their will. God is not a sinner.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
#29
You do realise there are more modern translations than the KJV, don't you? It's not the easiest version to read and understand. I don't know why it's so popular with Americans.
Because we are "Amerikans" HAH!..........and a lot of people have gone to seed on the King Jim and worship the version rather than the God of the version!
 
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#30
It cannot be both for it is against the nature of God to force people to be sinners against their will. God is not a sinner.
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
 
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#32
Then God is a sinner.
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#33
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !

And you're making God a sinner by saying it's both.
 
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#34
And you're making God a sinner by saying it's both.
No you are, this is what I am saying:


Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#35
No you are, this is what I am saying:


Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
It is YOU accusing God of forcing men to sin, which makes God the ultimate sinner.

Those vessels cannot fit themselves if God ALREADY fitted them.....you can't make yourself a vessel of wrath if God has already made you a vessel of wrath. You would have no choice but to be what God forced you to be.
 
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#36
It is YOU accusing God of forcing men to sin, which makes God the ultimate sinner.

Those vessels cannot fit themselves if God ALREADY fitted them.....you can't make yourself a vessel of wrath if God has already made you a vessel of wrath. You would have no choice but to be what God forced you to be.
No you are, this is what I am saying:


Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#37
No you are, this is what I am saying:


Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
You posted "So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction "

You have God FIRST fitting them for destruction. So they have no choice in the matter, they cannot make themselves vessels of wrath if God ALREADY has done that to them.


Rom 9:22 'What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

2 Pet 3:15 the purpose of God's longsuffering is salvation. Why would God be longsuffering they be saved if God has already predetermined they be lost?
 
Last edited:
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#38
You posted "So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction "

You have God FIRST fitting them for destruction. So they have no choice in the matter, they cannot make themselves vessels of wrath if God ALREADY has done that to them.


Rom 9:22 'What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

2 Pet 3:15 the purpose of God's longsuffering is salvation. Why would God be longsuffering they be saved if God has already predetermined they be lost?
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#39
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !
"Both" is not possible. It makes a sinner out of God.
 
Jan 21, 2013
2,004
23
0
#40
"Both" is not possible. It makes a sinner out of God.
Its both, that's the whole point, Since God's Will is at work in the creature, whose power is Almighty, then the creatures will can do nothing but conform to what the will of the Almighty's will is. So the vessels of wrath fit themselves for destruction because God fits them to destruction !