Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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This Co you say does it not start with being co-crucified with Christ and risen back to live, where we see as Paul said:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Philippians 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

How can one see new life without being willing to be dead to self?
Again this all implies work. You cannot worship Him with faith. It takes work to worship Him.
It clearly says "I live in the Spirit". It does not say the Spirit lives in me doing the work"
I think you have a total misunderstanding of the use of the word "work" in scripture. Paul uses it 6 times and each has a different definition. Most of you who opt for faith only rather than through faith, don't understand what James, for example is actually saying. Many conflate what Christ has done for us, with our relationship of faith and living according to the precepts of that relationship.

You also show a misunderstanding of the relationship between "flesh" and the Spirit.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Quite the contrary. It is because of the righteousness of Christ, the reconciliation of Christ of the world, that I am able to be in union with Him. It is the doing of righteousness (works through faith) that makes one righteous, I John 3:7.

Christ sacrifice for sin is sufficient for the sins of the world, times 1 million times. Why are you asking the question?
The fruit shown is the showing of one's belief in the finished works of Christ for us, trying to understand what you are saying so directly straight out ask?
Can works save us or are we saved by Christ's work?
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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That is revealing the fight between flesh yours, mine and all born here of the flesh the Spirit of God and we are to walk by the Spirit of God not flesh
Or do you not know that all sin has been condemned to the flesh at the cross: So there is no flesh that can please God

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So if one walks by their flesh or anyone Else's can they please God?
Not according to Paul, peter, James, John, or any of the Saints Hebrews 11 reveals it by Faith, one is righteous, by trusting God period over all man in God's love to all shown completed in Son Christ
Here is why you misunderstand the difference between "flesh" and Spirit. Doing the will of the Father through faith is NOT doing the works of the flesh. It is precisely the definition of walking in the Spirit. All it means to do works of the flesh is to do them outside of faith. Living IN faith, being saved through faith is all about working with the Spirit. Walking after the Spirit. Imitating the Spirit/Christ. That is why you are confused over the "works of the law" and the "works of faith" or Paul also uses the phrase, "works of love".
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Then you misunderstand what Christ accomplished for us. Christ reconciled the world. He atoned for the sin of the world
Man cannot effect or affect anything that Christ accomplished for the world, and all of mankind.
Christ overcame death and sin for us, which we could not do. I cannot add or subtract from that work. What you are doing is not saving you from death and sin, it is not freeing you from the bondage to death and sin.

What I am required to do has to do with why I was created, NOT what Christ did on the Cross. What He did on the Cross makes it possible again for man and God to be reunited now and for eternity. The works we do through faith, has NOTHING to do with what Christ accomplished for us.

Your personal salvation is dependent on what you do, not on what Christ did for mankind. You are conflating to very distinct and different aspects or our salvation.
Who gets the credit for what you are claiming in the works that you are requiring, through Faith You or God?
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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The fruit shown is the showing of one's belief in the finished works of Christ for us, trying to understand what you are saying so directly straight out ask?
Can works save us or are we saved by Christ's work?
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Here again you are conflating two different aspects of salvation.
Works cannot save us, because Christ did that for us in saving all men from death and sin. The Gift of salvation to all men is what Christ accomplished for us because we could not.
However, the purpose of God creating us is the same as the purpose He, through Christ redeemed the entire world from death and sin, that is, to be able to have a union, a relationship with man.
This personal salvation is all about man and man's relationship with Christ. God cannot save you apart from YOU living according the the precepts of that relationship.
Again, you use the word, justify. Justification by faith does not save anyone. It puts one into a correct relationship with God, so that we can then in that relationship be saved by living up to the commands of that relationship.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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I appears you got that explanation backwards:
Is Faith true Faith a result of works?
Or is the works done through us as was done through Christ by Father the evidence of Faith, that one believes Father and does as Father does, thanks to son showing us how to walk circumspectly in 100% trust to Father to do in and through us what no flesh could ever do, only Christ's flesh did, and ever will be pleasing to Father, Therefore by Faith we are to walk as he walked in 100% dependent on Father to lead in love to all
Or is that too simple, his yoke easy and burden light?
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Who gets the credit for what you are claiming in the works that you are requiring, through Faith You or God?
Man does. Which is why we will give an account of our works. It is OUR works on which we will be judged, Rom 1:7, Rev 20:13.

But as I pointed out to you in the previous post, you have the idea that these works are saving us from death and sin. That is your confusion over the works of the law, vs works of faith, and love.

No place in scripture will we be judged on our faith. Which is why faith ONLY is a dead, meaningless faith. That faith must produce works, must show it is alive, must show the reality of our faith. That means following, obeying Him and we will give an account of our works. This is also shown in the parable of the Last Judgement in Matt 25:31-46.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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There is no such thing as being Justified(saved). Definitely not if one is not longer being sanctified. If one is being saved through their faith and then loses faith, how can one remain justified by that faith?
If Faith is in self, there is no justification and or sanctification, and no new mind renewal, trusting in self to have as Father has asked that no flesh can be this type of love and only Father can impute this to you, if you beleive and trust Father to do this in you and through you as Christ did
So sorry you do not yet see this and are not at rest in this as I am. I have by Father taken on his yoke and burden, Father is the one that revealed this to me through Son
And I bet if you are sincere Father will show this to you too, so you can rest medicine in him
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Is Faith true Faith a result of works?
Or is the works done through us as was done through Christ by Father the evidence of Faith, that one believes Father and does as Father does, thanks to son showing us how to walk circumspectly in 100% trust to Father to do in and through us what no flesh could ever do, only Christ's flesh did, and ever will be pleasing to Father, Therefore by Faith we are to walk as he walked in 100% dependent on Father to lead in love to all
Or is that too simple, his yoke easy and burden light?
The works are NOT done through YOU. The Holy Spirit works in YOU for YOU to do the Works of the Spirit. The Holy Spiirt is NOT going to be judged on how well He did the works that were created for YOU to do.
Most of what you say is correct. Christ showed us how to walk. It is US doing the walking not the Holy Spirit. We are to imitate Him. He or the Holy Spirit is NOT doing the imitating. If that were true, faith would be meaningless and God could just as easily do this with every single human being and all would be saved as He desires. But he created man to be the fulcrum of the war between God and Satan. It is YOU that decides which army you will join and remain. No one can force you to join either side, nor can either force one to remain at any time. Man is free. You will be judged on that freedom and held accountable what you did with the gifts so generously given to every man.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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><>t<><

Okay let's put your theory to the TEST of Scripture:

John 3:5 (ASV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (KJV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NKJV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NASB) says BORN of water.John 3:5 (HCSB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NRSV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (ESV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NASB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NIV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (GWT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NET) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NCV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (NLT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (RSV) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (TLB) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (WNT) says BORN of water.
John 3:5 (YLT) says BORN of water.

Proverbs 30:6 (ASV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Add thou not unto his words, Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Here are verses 5 and 6 in the New King James Version. NOTICE HE appears to specifically define what HE meant by born of water in verse 6.

John 3:5-6 (ASV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
[SUP]6 [/SUP]
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Is not born of the water from the womb, when the water breaks? Was not known as Amniotic fluid in that day either.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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If Faith is in self, there is no justification and or sanctification, and no new mind renewal, trusting in self to have as Father has asked that no flesh can be this type of love and only Father can impute this to you, if you beleive and trust Father to do this in you and through you as Christ did
So sorry you do not yet see this and are not at rest in this as I am. I have by Father taken on his yoke and burden, Father is the one that revealed this to me through Son
And I bet if you are sincere Father will show this to you too, so you can rest medicine in him
You are arguing against a strawman here. this is your confusion over flesh and Spirit. Doing works is not necessarily flesh. Works of faith or through faith is NOT flesh, but still works.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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faith "cometh" by "hearing" so if one does not "hear" then faith does not come, therefore "faith" is conditional upon "hearing" making "hearing" something someone MUST DO :

 Romans 10:17 (NKJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Thank you so are you listening:
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
James 5:15 and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Why are you seemingly still thirsting? or are you?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,282
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Mat 25:14
For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Mat 25:15
And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Mat 25:16
Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

Mat 25:17
And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

Mat 25:18
But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

Mat 25:19
After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Mat 25:20
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Mat 25:21
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Mat 25:22
He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

Mat 25:23
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Mat 25:24
Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Mat 25:25
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

Mat 25:26
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Mat 25:27
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Mat 25:28
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Mat 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Mat 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mat 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Just on the basis of what you stated it is a contradiction. obviously God needs our help. Believing is help. He does not save your irrespective of one believing, and then scripture spends most of the ink explaining just what believing means in the context of our salvation.
You are not mad at God and have to do something are you? I mean for God's Mercy to those that believe God who are undeserving for the Mercy given.
Like Jonah was at God for giving the Ninevites undeserved Mercy, that was from Jonah kind of like an arrogance and had trouble accepting God's amazing Mercy, yet knew how Merciful God is, read it Chapter 4
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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which is a strange way to put it as well, since all men will make a decision about God. God is calling all men to repentence, God leaves no stone unturned to make sure that every single human being has the ability the capability to respond to God.
Yep God is a pursuer and does not leave us alone to our own devices, God's love is a refining love that is in constant work for you and me and all people?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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You almost got that one right.

Faith is Made available to all men, but each individual MUST open the door to his own heart and invite Christ in:

Revelation 3:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Yes, after the cross we are left with one thing to believe or not to beleive.
God or mankind in man's interpretaion or God's final sacrifice through Son, where we can rest in appreciation not taking it for granted
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Somewhere in what I stated you must have been misled. I have never stated that baptism is NOT about our spiritual rebirth. Baptism regenerates the relationship man lost due to the sin and condemnation of Adam. Which is why it is called "regenerative" as well.

You also misunderstood my question regarding being born of water, namely, what the disagreement is, that the water pertains to our natural birth, which it does not.
I dis agree being set free as what Christ did for us and was as well as is the one that came after John to give us new life in Spirit and truth to Father by his death for us in the flesh. We reckon ourselves dead with Christ to the flesh right here right now at the death, then new life comes from Father for us in the Spirit of father a free gift for us to walk in by Faith (belief)
Water Baptism is nothing more that a good conscience to Father to want to serve Father and begins the start into coming to the end of the energy of one's own flesh efforts, seeing one day there is no way they can be perfect before a Holy God. And prayerfully see it is all God through Son's finished work, and we become responders to this alone and then we are doers, not hearers, actually Father through us in the power of the Holy Spirit of God. The same Holy Spirit that led Christ
Truth here or error you decide it matters not to me seeing how we all have free choice and I trust Father to do the standing in us to teach us the truth that sets one free and no other can. A rest that all seek is today here and now?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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No one is disputing that God is doing the saving. But the fact is, God cannot save man without the help of man. It is a mutual covenant, not a one-sided arrangment.
Abraham and all those that walked by Faith that works were produced by this, were nothing more than vessels being willingly used by God. none of these Saints credited self to what they did at all

So walking by Faith is like being a water glass, made to be used to get a drink at the masters call of that water glass whenever the master decides to use it or not.
So seeing this analogy, I can not fathom ever a water glass, being inconvenienced, if I decide not to use it and it just stays in the Cabinet collecting dust can any of you all? Ever imagine the water glass complaining?

So why do we complain to God and each other and not just rest in God and be God's water glass?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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Works are very important, but it is never the "works of the law" but works of faith that is relevant here.
As to being made righteous, all men were made righteous by Christ. That is what II Cor 5:18-19, or Rom 3:23-25, or Rom 5:18, Or I Cor 15:22 is stating, as well as Rom 5:6-10 and some others as well.

However, once again, respective of our individual salvation through faith, is is all conditioned on works and we become, are imparted righteousness by Christ when we do righteous things I John 3:7. God does not make one righteous without the help of man, respective of our walk of faith.
It sounds and maybe this is not what you mean, but here goes:
sounds like you are trying to get credit for righteous works in response to God's righteous works for us?
When I have no righteousness before I was saved by Faith in the finished works of God through Son and still none of my own ever after saved.
I do have righteousness though, yet again it is not mine it is God's alone, and I am elated Father though Son has invited me to partake in Father's righteousness, having none of my own ever
Do you agree with this or refute this and want to have your own?