SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[eternally-gratefull]

NO, it has always had the same meaning, the same meaning as given to the Apostles originally. The Gospel was given Once to the saints. It has not changed since that beginning. Because it has never changed we can very easily today, 2000 years later, check against false teachings. A false teaching, always of men, have all originated after the Original Gospel.

yes, it does. It always has had ONE meaning, the Original meaning.

I am, but you are espousing a theory that originated by a man, Luther, at the Reformation 1500 years after the Original was given.

Yes, Christ as Head over His Church, and the Holy Spirit whose purpose is to guard both the Body of Christ and the Gospel entrusted to it. The Church is the ground and pillar of Truth, I Tim 3:15. He guards it against false teachings that it does not teach.

You can argue with the Head, Christ. He seems to have a much different persective than your unscriptual principle of "sola scriptura".
After 500 years of chaos, confusion and division any human being could recognize that scripture alone does not have any authority, but only man imposing his vaunted interpretations against it.

[/COLOR]

Here is your problem.

Paul states quite clearly that Timothy had enough wisdom from scripture at a young age (before the NT was even written) to be saved (ie. he understood the gospel completely from scripture)

Yet you claim that even after we add the NT we can not have enough wisdom from scripture to know how to be saved (the gospel)

not to mention the fact. if your correct. the Gospel was known completely by scripture LONG before any of your extra biblical writings even came to be.

The mere fact yuo deny sola scripture, which is completely apposed to pauls words. and contradicts even your own words. SHows us you are not one to be listened to.

 

[dcontroversal]

you can keep on trying

You will never convince us that we can ever earn a gift, or ever be worthy of eternal life no matter how good we are or how much work we do.

If you want to stand in front of God on your own merit. Feel free, Forgive me if even the slightest thought of doing that scares the living hell out of me.. And for that reason, I wish to trust God and his promises.

You should be scared of that also. But evidently the law has not yet worked in you where you think you can still earn something God has stated over and over you will NEVER EARN IT. But only by HIS GRACE MERCY AND FORGIVENESS can you recieve it. All we can do is pray God bring you to that point before it is too late.

No doubt as he, they can keep on trying to spread heretical works for salvation until hell (proverbially) freezes over as the bible does not support works for salvation.....The FAITH OF JESUS is sufficient!

 

[dcontroversal]

oh my goodness. post the whole chapter. the entire book. it refutes your false doctrine.

I agree and good luck with that...even if they did post the rest of it which condemns faith+works for salvation they would twist it up into a heretical pretzel......and then boast about how righteous they are in their works!

 

[dcontroversal]

How many of you were drawn in with these words? Angered? Embittered?

Matthew 12:35-37 (KJV) [SUP]35 [/SUP]A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. [SUP]36 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. [SUP]37 [/SUP]For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If you actually studied your bible you would easily see that the Pharisees who taught heresy had the same response to Jesus and his teaching...as a matter of fact the majority of the time when someone gets angered and embittered by the truth they are in error and sin....I suggest you submit to the Holy Spirit and get right with God as your personal attacks are obvious to all and proves that you are led by the devil as opposed to the Spirit of God.....maybe you lost your salvation and need to geit it back again for the ?? time!

 

[dcontroversal]

1) Speaks of works of righteousness. Period. Titus 3:5-7 also teaches that we are justified by His grace and not our good works.

2) Ephesians 2:8-9 speaks of any works that would cause one to boast. It clearly teaches that Salvation is a free gift of God's wonderful grace. And that we have no part in earning or meriting salvation.

3) Once salvation is given to an individual by God Almighty, that Salvation cannot be lost. God gives the believer eternal salvation.

4) In the context of Gal. 5, Paul was addressing men who were counting on their works to save them. He was teaching them that if they were circimcised (counting on their circumcision and other works to save them) then Christ would not profit them. Since they made the sacrifice and atonement of Christ of no effect to them by them counting on the works of the law to justify and save them.

5) One gets in Christ by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that happens at the very moment one believes on Christ for salvation. (1 Cor. 12:13, Gal. 3:26, Eph. 1:13). And the last part of Romans 8:1 does belong in the text. It is Scripture.

7) Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4-7; and Tit. 3:5 all point to Faith only for salvation.

Amen and excellent verses!

 

[dcontroversal]

One should continue to persist, there is always hope of repentance. The Light could go on at any moment.

We already have the light...it is you and your works for salvation buddies that twist the scripture and walk in darkness...you should learn to trust into the perfect faith OF Jesus instead of your works before it is eternally to late!

 

[Alligator]

No, there is one Gospel, which means "good news". The good news of God sending His only son to die for our sins.

No, our salvation is conditional. Read Ist John again. It says IF we walk in the light, the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. The Implication is if we don't walk in the light, His blood will not cleanse us.

the implication? why don't you read the whole (short) chapter. it says if we confess our sins we are cleansed.

Well I have read the entire chapter, actually many times. And yes that's what it says and I believe it. So what is your point exactly?

 

[dcontroversal]

Hi Shyness,

What is God's will?
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is consistent with the gospel of grace.
This is also consistent with the works Jesus told us to do, John 6:29.

And who are those who practice lawlessness and are told to depart from the Lord?
Answer: It's the legalists who preach the law.

Remember that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19
It's the legalists here on this forum who are under the law. And in this they make themselves a sinner.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law) , I make myself a transgressor/SINNER

Here we see scripture confirming that it's the legalists who are told to depart as they chose righteousness by works of the law instead of righteousness by faith. Legalists reject Christ's sacrifice and what it offers us. Instead they have chosen to be under the law. Hence, whatever the law says it says to them. And they will be found guilty (Rom 3:19, James 2:10). They are rightly described as those who practice lawlessness.

As for Christians, however, we believe on Jesus. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. Christ's sacrifice has sanctified us, Heb 10:10. Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. Hence Satan, the accuser, cannot charge us with lawlessness.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Shyness, if you are following error doctrine that mixes works of the law with grace, God says you cannot do that, Rom 11:6.
He asks you to repent of your dead works and believe on Jesus.

AMEN and excellent use of truth for sure!

 

[dcontroversal]

I am talking about Hebrews 10, and it is not talking about at the time of Jacob's trouble. He is speaking to those at that time that have accepted Jesus but then through willful sin turn away from Him. It is an example for us to follow by as well. Even though as you say the phrase fall away only appears twice. There are multiple scriptures that talk about those who fall away using other wording, but meaning the same.

Why don't you put that in context as Hebrews chapter 10 deals with those who forsake the assembling together with God's people in capacity worship and in doing so count the blood of Jesus a common ordinary base thing and to expect nothing but judgment....

You really should start studying in context for real!

 

[dcontroversal]

could someone use scripture and post a list of the good works christians are to perform, particularly the ones that will get them into heaven?

i do believe christians do good works. some few, some more and some many. but for those who claim your good works (presumably after justification) are added to Christ's work in securing your final salvation, please list them here:

Amen and I agree with this and your previous post....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus.

As for myself, I try my best to help every homeless person, etc. but sometimes I fail. We are supposed to help people. If you truely love everyone as yourself, you will do it. That is why those quotes are there, thats all. Remember, we all fall short to the glory of God. There is trying your best and failing, and then not trying at all and failing.

So if you fail do you loose your salvation?

So if you try your best but fail does that make you more saved than the one who does not try and fails?

How many times can you...loose it-gain it, loose it-gain it, loose it-gain it, loose it-gain it....salvation that IS?

What if you have just failed to keep the word of God and get killed in a car wreck..are you lost?

No peace in works for salvation..none whatsoever at all!

 

[dcontroversal]

I'm yet to hear anyone give an exact answer to this question. While on the surface the idea of requiring works in addition to faith in order to receive salvation may sound noble, in essence it disqualifies faith. Here's why: We receive eternal salvation by placing our faith (our trust, our reliance) exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. To say that we must add works to the equation in order to help Jesus save us is to say that Christ’s finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what we really mean then, is that we lack the trust and reliance that He alone can eternally save us. This lack of trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation is self reliance, works salvation, no salvation at all.

I agree 100% with this, this is an excellent response, and in line with the truth!

 

[Cassian]

Here is your problem.

Paul states quite clearly that Timothy had enough wisdom from scripture at a young age (before the NT was even written) to be saved (ie. he understood the gospel completely from scripture)

yes, there were many Jews of the OT that were saved, Abraham, Jacob, David, etc.

Yet you claim that even after we add the NT we can not have enough wisdom from scripture to know how to be saved (the gospel)

not when you extract the original meaning from it. That is what sola scriptura means. The early Church never even had the Bible as you have it. They were taught orally. It was th oral teaching that was held inviable until the 4th century when certain letters were Canonized as the NT with the OT added. Paul did not just write a letter and send it to some place like Corinth. He was actually there for almost three years. It was later that he wrote to them the letters we have in the Bible. The Corinthians knew and understood what he was saying without "interpreting it". They already knew and understood the gospel. The Apostles established the Churches, gave them the Gospel which was to be guarded and kept unified by the Holy Spirit through the Body with Christ as Head.

not to mention the fact. if your correct. the Gospel was known completely by scripture LONG before any of your extra biblical writings even came to be.

Yes, and it is the what you call the extra bibical that confirms what scripture has always meant. The Body through the ages has accepted these writings because they were faithful to the original teaching, the teaching they all knew for the oral.

The mere fact yuo deny sola scripture, which is completely apposed to pauls words. and contradicts even your own words. SHows us you are not one to be listened to.

Paul is not a sola scripturist. He lived only up to about 70 and only his letters existed at that time. He would not have thought that they might become Scripture as you understand it.
Sola scriptura is a slogan right out of the Reformation, though the RCC uses the principle but never gave it a name. Protestants simply employed the method and set themselves up as individual Popes and declared their interpretation of scripture. The consequence thousands of gospels all derived by man, all based on scripture, but according to their own personal interpretation. The fact that there are thousands, we can know that all are false, except one, if that were possible, because there has only been ONE meaning to scripture.

 

[dcontroversal]

further proof the law has not proven to some people that they are sinners. and do not understand the grace of God.

The ignore the words, "I never knew you" and only see the words, Practice lawlessness, which would be every one of us.

you can not use this to prove salvation can be lost. when this passage is not saying this, It says if you are going to try to reach God with your works. and stand in front of him under your own merit, you will fail. Because God never knew you. because even though you THINK your righteous, according to the law. You STILL practess lawlessness.

AMEN and I agree and will add....what is tragic is the fact that they think they know Jesus and what he desires as well....in the end it is evident...Anyone who trusts into works for salvation or to keep them saved has not trusted into the faith of Jesus as they trust their flesh and what the flesh can do....they have believed a gospel of a different kind and are double cursed to hell for what they preach and teach concerning works for or to keep salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

there will be no unbelievers at the "bema seat" judgment of God. this is for believers only, and yes, some will have their rewards burnt as wood hey and straw.But as paul makes clear. He himself will BE SAVED, even as though he escaped through the fire.

the unbeliever will not be risen by Christ, he will be delivered to him at the "great white throne judgment" of which NO believer will stand.. and they all will follow satan and his demons to the pits of hell "eternal torment"

I agree with this as well and it seems that he does not understand that the guy who has works of wood (HAY) and stubble is a saved man who did not live his life as biblical as he should have and yet is still saved, but without the inheritance he could have had!

 

[Stephen63]

If you actually studied your bible you would easily see that the Pharisees who taught heresy had the same response to Jesus and his teaching...as a matter of fact the majority of the time when someone gets angered and embittered by the truth they are in error and sin....I suggest you submit to the Holy Spirit and get right with God as your personal attacks are obvious to all and proves that you are led by the devil as opposed to the Spirit of God.....maybe you lost your salvation and need to geit it back again for the ?? time!

Let's talk about personal attacks, since you brought it up.

You're the Op. YOU posted your statement KNOWING FULL WELL it would draw in everyone that opposed it & would argue it!

YOU then went on the attack defending your statement, condemning everybody that disagreed.

YOU stirred this hornet's nest up intentionally.

YOU condemned the others, YOU judged them! Have you forgotten this?:

John 8:7 (KJV) [SUP]7 [/SUP]So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.


Matthew 7:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

How does it feel when you step on others to attain your stature in this forum?

 

[dcontroversal]

I used the KJV for the first 25 years of my christian life.
It is not the best interpretation out there. it has meny issues just like they all do.



been there done that. again saved is in the perfect tense.

no the people did not get it wrong, You are misreading what they wrote. The english of there day does not mean what it does today,m Or have you not figured that out yet?

By grace are ye SAVED (notice they used the past tense form, not a future tense form,)by Grace.
They also prove it by what they followed it up with. "lest any man should boast" which means to be proud, to take credit. to claim they earned it) a fact you evidently do not understand.

They also go on further to prove this. By saying in verse 10.

"for we are his workmanship"

Who are we? We are those who have been SAVED "PERFECT TENSE" By Faith apart from works.

Your whole context crumbles and falls to peaces. No matter what version you use.

amen to this as well.....they also ignore verb tense when applied to John 3:16 and the aorist tense verb as applied unto salvation based upon FAITH!

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Amen and excellent verses!

Thanks DC. And yes they are indeed!

 

[dcontroversal]

Let's talk about personal attacks, since you brought it up.

You're the Op. YOU posted your statement KNOWING FULL WELL it would draw in everyone that opposed it & would argue it!

YOU then went on the attack defending your statement, condemning everybody that disagreed.

YOU stirred this hornet's nest up intentionally.

YOU condemned the others, YOU judged them! Have you forgotten this?:

John 8:7 (KJV) [SUP]7 [/SUP]So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.


Matthew 7:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

How does it feel when you step on others to attain your stature in this forum?

I don't know if you know it or not, but Wal-Mart sells bottles and diapers if you need to go buy some...maybe you can WORK for it!

 

[dcontroversal]

No sorry my friend.

The word SAVED is in the perfect tense. You can not twist it and say this is refering to grace. that is called twisting the word of God. And trying to force the word of God to fit your belief

the word Grace is a known, It is the act by which the perfect verb "saved" was obtained.

Amen to this as well....Twisty says it all with the workers for salvation crowd!