Can a man who has become a Christian NEVER do any good works and still be saved? Yes? No?
Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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Can a man who has become a Christian NEVER do any good works and still be saved? Yes? No?
2 Pet 1:5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;"
1 Pet 1:21 "Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."
1 Pet 1:9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
1 Pet 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"
James 1:3 "Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience."
Col 2:5 "For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ."
1 Cor 15:14 "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain."
The new birth is water baptism, something one obeys by submitting unto it. So savlation cannot be had without this obedience.
Posting definitions of "justified" does not change the fact that "by works a man is justified". Nor does it change Rom 6:17,18 that Paul said they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then they were freed from sin = justified
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
If i have to do something, I will praise myself.
who is going to praise themselves when they trusted someone else to save them, because they were totally unable?
no one.
You do not understand what faith is my friend,
I understand that God will not have faith for me, it is up to me to have faith, so since faith is something "I must do" it is "my part" of the covenant, it is its self a righteous work, however because it is because of His Grace, it could never be a work of merit.
L
LT
Guest
Lets find a way to agree in Christ before we continue.
We all agree that we are saved by faith in Christ, and that we are called to good works, and the pursuit of holiness.
We disagree on the emphasis, but we are all still brothers and sisters here in Christ, an agree on and in Christ.
We all agree that we are saved by faith in Christ, and that we are called to good works, and the pursuit of holiness.
We disagree on the emphasis, but we are all still brothers and sisters here in Christ, an agree on and in Christ.
YOUR ERROR NOW is defining everyone as a Christian who acknowledges who Jesus is. The problem with that concept is that would make the Demons Christians:
Luke 8:28-33 (HCSB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and said in a loud voice, “What do You have to do with me, Jesus, You Son of the Most High God? I beg You, don’t torment me!”
[SUP]29 [/SUP] For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was guarded, bound by chains and shackles, he would snap the restraints and be driven by the demon into deserted places.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] “What is your name?” Jesus asked him. “Legion,” he said—because many demons had entered him.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] And they begged Him not to banish them to the abyss.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] A large herd of pigs was there, feeding on the hillside. The demons begged Him to permit them to enter the pigs, and He gave them permission.
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The demons came out of the man and entered the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and drowned.
See, being a Christian is MUCH MORE than bowing down before HIM, and acknowledging WHO HE IS, or you make those 1000 demons eligible to be called Christians.
It is NOT how much you learn about Jesus, or how many facts about Jesus you learn and admit are absolutely true, that makes you a CHRISTIAN. Even the demons do that much.
It is whether or not you, out of a willing heart, because of LOVE for HIM, repent of your sinful life, receiving JESUS in your HEART as LORD and MASTER. And ALL OF THAT IS EVIDENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKING IN OUR HEARTS. WE DO NOT GET TO PAT OURSELVES ON THE BACK FOR ANY OF IT. That establishment of that inner personal LOVE relationship with Jesus Christ, submitting to HIM as MASTER, is what makes us a REAL CHRISTIAN. Prior to that we are claiming the Name CHRISTIAN IN VAIN.
John 1:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
? ? ? Received HIM as WHAT though ? ? ?
Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him,
Romans 10:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess (NOT JUST PROFESS) with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
To answer your questions NOW, real Christians will always produce the fruit of willing obedience because they LOVE HIM, because HE SAVED US (past tense).
BUT THERE ARE MANY FAKE CHRISTIANS, and Jesus taught us we will know them by their fruit. Fake Christians never produce the fruit of Good Works, NOR the genuine LOVE for Jesus Christ.
John 14:15 (HCSB) [SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.
No LOVE for Christ = a counterfeit Christian.
No Desire to Obey Him = a counterfeit Christian.
No lifestyle that produces THE FRUIT of good works out of LOVE for Jesus Christ = a counterfeit Christian.
Now I warn you be patient with the baby Christians. Whenever I planted a fruit tree seed (such as a peach), it was ALWAYS at least two years before I ever saw any of the Fruit it would produce.
Matthew 7:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Luke 8:11-15 (ESV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
THAT parable is NOT describing unbelievers and three types of believers.
BUT RATHER:
It is describing three types of UNBELIEVERS including two types of fake Christians, and what constitutes a REAL CHRISTIAN in God's eyes. AND good works are some of the FRUIT that a Real Christian produces by the new nature the HOLY SPIRIT put in us.
Don't believe me, then maybe you will listen to Paul:
1 John 2:19 (NIV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Ephesians 4:20-24 (NKJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But you have not so learned Christ,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[SUP]22 [/SUP] that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.
NO we certainly do not get to pat ourselves on the back.
You just described AN ACT OF LOVE FOR CHRIST
and
AN ACT OF LOVE FOR ONE'S FELLOW MAN.
That is the NATURAL FRUIT that will always be produced in someone who has genuinely BEEN SAVED.
Galatians 5:22-23 (GW)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the spiritual nature produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, and self-control. There are no laws against things like that.
Yeah this is Paul's view of the (collective work) of the ENTIRE assembly which was located a Thessalonica and you yanking it out of context so as to apply unto saved by works is contrary to what it teaches and the point that Paul is making....
Again this is taken out of context to try and prove the false teaching of works for and or to keep salvation...their faith was not saving faith, but rather faith that JESUS could heal the man!
Again this is taken out of context to try and prove the false teaching of works for and or to keep salvation...their faith was not saving faith, but rather faith that JESUS could heal the man!
Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."
John 14:23
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
John 14:15-16
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'… Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
James 2:14-26
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[SUP][a][/SUP] is that? [SUP]17 [/SUP]So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! [SUP]20 [/SUP]Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; [SUP]23 [/SUP]and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
The bottom lines is faith is required for salvation but works are required for faith. Dead faith is no faith and without works faith is dead. That makes salvation impossible without works because faith is impossible without works.
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."
John 14:23
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
John 14:15-16
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'… Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
James 2:14-26
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[SUP][a][/SUP] is that? [SUP]17 [/SUP]So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! [SUP]20 [/SUP]Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; [SUP]23 [/SUP]and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? [SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
The bottom lines is faith is required for salvation but works are required for faith. Dead faith is no faith and without works faith is dead. That makes salvation impossible without works because faith is impossible without works.
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You are stating the Arminian view. It is not the biblical view of salvation.
Salvation is the new birth so called because we are born anew in Christ. We are become the inheritance of Christ. Heirs to eternal life. A birthright cannot be earned. From a human perspective I will always be my father's son. My son will always be my son even if he does not live as I would desire him to live.
So it is with salvation by grace. Righteousness is imputed by virtue of who I am in Christ. I cannot earn righteousness. I am expected to live like I belong to Jesus but I still belong to Him even if I don't live up to expectations. This is always between me and my Lord not for others to judge for they cannot know the heart.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Here is how far you have fallen into this false doctrine of yours.
Romans 4:4-5 (NKJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
That IS NOT saying we should not walk in obedience to HIM;
but rather,
it is saying we should NEVER think that our works are earning "our part of our Salvation".
There is only one kind of salvation that is salvation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Is God a liar?
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
That doesn't mean he did not do works, the ? is what type of works does God the Father accepts?
Romans 9:11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
So one can try to make themselves perfect in the sight of God as their response to God but to no avail in ever being perfect of their own works even with trying to get help, It is clear that no flesh can ever please God, one needs to be born of the Spirit and reside their to keep from sin. And we are in unredeemed fl;esh that sins period. So John wrote:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Sure my hope is to not sin just as it seems you are claiming here, yuet you and me both are in unredeemed flesh that just plain and simply sins to its own arrogance, no humility in flesh
True Faith alone proiduces God works of love through this unredeemed flesh that God's Spirit has control of by ones free will choice for God to do this, knowing self can't
That decision is not mine or yours, the decision is Father's through Son. I do think God is not please with showmanship
Do not tell the left hand what the right hand is doing or do your good works in front of others to get their approval, I tell you the truth those already got their reward, Do whatever you do in secret and not to draw any attention to self as if you are so good when no one is except God
Go into your closet and pray, for God rewards those in secret that are not out for themselves
Please wake up to your adding to believe, and looking to works for reward as it seems this to be what you are saying