Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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Hello Seabass,
You quote 1 Tim. 5:8, as part of your argument that 'salvation is not possible without works'
Yet, in 1 Tim. 3:14, Paul tells Timothy why he is instructing him, it is so that Timothy and those under his supervision will know how to behave in the Church of the Living God. This has nothing to do with SALVATION, but everything to do with living in such a manner as to honour God.
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Our standing before God is based on the sacrificial work of Christ, and its acceptance by God the Father. It is therefore sure and unshakeable. The person who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God has life through His Name (John 20:31) .
Do you not believe John 20:31, Seabass?
In Christ Jesus
Chris
You quote 1 Tim. 5:8, as part of your argument that 'salvation is not possible without works'
Yet, in 1 Tim. 3:14, Paul tells Timothy why he is instructing him, it is so that Timothy and those under his supervision will know how to behave in the Church of the Living God. This has nothing to do with SALVATION, but everything to do with living in such a manner as to honour God.
------------------
Our standing before God is based on the sacrificial work of Christ, and its acceptance by God the Father. It is therefore sure and unshakeable. The person who believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God has life through His Name (John 20:31) .
Do you not believe John 20:31, Seabass?
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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You obviously do not understand Eph 1:13 and Eph 4:30,
You can see from Simon in Acts 8:13 he believed, you cannot say he did not, the bible said he is a believer, not some man made concocted term making him a fake believer, it is not what the bible says, it says "Simon himself also believed"...
Acts 8:13 (NKJV) Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
but then Simon fell, Peter was quite clear on the matter :
Acts 8:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
The ONLY way he will not perish is IF he repents :
Acts 8:22-24 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. [SUP]
And Simon Repented :
24 [/SUP]Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
Peter again in 2 Peter 2:20 says "if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world" (after being in a saved state) then goes on to say "they are again entangled therein" that says one can be in a saved state, then lose that saved state.
2 Peter 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Eternal security or
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
is a man made doctrine and not the doctrine of Christ.
You can see from Simon in Acts 8:13 he believed, you cannot say he did not, the bible said he is a believer, not some man made concocted term making him a fake believer, it is not what the bible says, it says "Simon himself also believed"...
Acts 8:13 (NKJV) Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
but then Simon fell, Peter was quite clear on the matter :
Acts 8:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
The ONLY way he will not perish is IF he repents :
Acts 8:22-24 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. [SUP]
And Simon Repented :
24 [/SUP]Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
Peter again in 2 Peter 2:20 says "if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world" (after being in a saved state) then goes on to say "they are again entangled therein" that says one can be in a saved state, then lose that saved state.
2 Peter 2:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Eternal security or
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
is a man made doctrine and not the doctrine of Christ.
The Gift of salvation has been given to all men. You do not need to receive it. What you are receiving is an offer of Christ to be united with Him as He had created all men to be, united with Him.
Before He could do that He needed to overcome the fall. The condemnation of death to Adam. That has been completed, it is finished, man had nothing to do with it, and it is a gift given to all men.
Because man could not save himself from the fall, (by works of the law) overcome death and sin, God requires that instead we simply need to believe that Christ is the Savioir of the world, that He is Lord of Lord's, and that (faith) justifies us. It puts us into a correct relationship with Christ, (we accepted His offer) and now He can work with us in time for the salvation of our souls. It is all about being perfected IN Him, being conformed into HIS Likeness. But many believers change their minds about being IN Christ, they prefer the pleasures of this world, as one of the examples in the Sower parable. or Dumas a co-worker with Paul.
The works that perfect us were created for us to do with God. Christ's faith is our example and model. We are commanded to be perfect. It is a goal, but man being sinful, has a slow journey, sometimes two steps back and only one forward, other times the reverse. But it is a forward journey, never static, cannot die, for if it does, we are liable to fall, and not attain the promise that awaits us at the end.
Before He could do that He needed to overcome the fall. The condemnation of death to Adam. That has been completed, it is finished, man had nothing to do with it, and it is a gift given to all men.
Because man could not save himself from the fall, (by works of the law) overcome death and sin, God requires that instead we simply need to believe that Christ is the Savioir of the world, that He is Lord of Lord's, and that (faith) justifies us. It puts us into a correct relationship with Christ, (we accepted His offer) and now He can work with us in time for the salvation of our souls. It is all about being perfected IN Him, being conformed into HIS Likeness. But many believers change their minds about being IN Christ, they prefer the pleasures of this world, as one of the examples in the Sower parable. or Dumas a co-worker with Paul.
The works that perfect us were created for us to do with God. Christ's faith is our example and model. We are commanded to be perfect. It is a goal, but man being sinful, has a slow journey, sometimes two steps back and only one forward, other times the reverse. But it is a forward journey, never static, cannot die, for if it does, we are liable to fall, and not attain the promise that awaits us at the end.
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E
finally agree with what?
John 6: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Are you ever going to agree with God that our faith in his gift is not our work but Gods? or still try to take credit for it?
God does that in all men. He works for all men to beleive, That you believe is YOUR choice. He does not make the choice for you, nor force you to make the choice, nor can He force you to keep your faith active, alive, and continuing. That is all your responsibility. God is not going to hold himself accountable for what is YOUR responsibility.
Wrong death. the death He freed us from is the condemnation Adam. You know the mortal one we inherited from Him, the dust to dust death. The loss of eternal existence. We would just dissolve into dust.
In fact by removing this condemnation sin is now our responsibility. Which is why it is always held accountable to you.
No man can blame ADam any longer, Christ freed us from that bondage to death and sin.
Repentance is the ONLY way to be put into Christ, by faith. And when IN Christ, we need to confess our sin otherwise we will find ourselves separated from God. Sin separates man from God. It is sin that causes man to fall, which is why scripture is so adament about making sure believers remain faithful and when they do sin, seek forgiveness.
Once again, you have an invalid understanding of scripture. Why in the world do you think Christ's purpose is as our High Priest? All men were given the gift of His sacrifice. It is for man to use to remain IN Christ by having Christ, as our High Priest, forgiving our sins.
In fact by removing this condemnation sin is now our responsibility. Which is why it is always held accountable to you.
No man can blame ADam any longer, Christ freed us from that bondage to death and sin.
Repentance is the ONLY way to be put into Christ, by faith. And when IN Christ, we need to confess our sin otherwise we will find ourselves separated from God. Sin separates man from God. It is sin that causes man to fall, which is why scripture is so adament about making sure believers remain faithful and when they do sin, seek forgiveness.
Once again, you have an invalid understanding of scripture. Why in the world do you think Christ's purpose is as our High Priest? All men were given the gift of His sacrifice. It is for man to use to remain IN Christ by having Christ, as our High Priest, forgiving our sins.
E
lol.. do you believe what God said or not?
accorrding to his post. you DO NOT BELIEVE GOD WHEN HE SAID,
John 6: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
i do not think anything else needs to be said to you. You just called jesus a liar.
accorrding to his post. you DO NOT BELIEVE GOD WHEN HE SAID,
John 6: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
i do not think anything else needs to be said to you. You just called jesus a liar.
Brother there is a before the cross and after is their not. Before the cross under Law Christ came, while sacrifices still in place, and the water baptism was not ever in public until John the Baptist. All the high Priest in office, before ever going into the Holy of Holy's had to be cleansed with water first
John came to Baptize the Christ and did, Christ came to fulfill the Law and Prophets not destroy them.
When he did this completed the Law and Prophets and was on the cross, he yelled "IT IS FINISHED" And gave up the ghost and died in and to flesh for three days as proof of this death in flesh, in order to bring in the new Covenant laws of love to all, being our propitiation from any and all sin, in the order of Melchizedek, in the original promise to Abraham, 430 years prior to Law being given to the first chosen.
By Faith we are saved and by Faith we do, taking no credit to self, it is Father that does the work through me and all that believe.
Did Christ ever take any credit for himself ever? Did e not say only his Father is good to that rich man that called him good in Matt 19
Did Christ not say that he did not do the works? his Father did them through him?
So do you think that has changed and we are to do the works or trust Father to do them through us as Christ did?
And as The disciples had to wait for Father's Spirit to come and do what at Pentecost? The work Father's through Son right?
Why did they have to wait if Father expects you to do the work?
The wrong type of Cherry picking is whenever it glorifies me, you or any Human flesh, shows something does it not since no flesh pleases Father outside of Son's Christ's you think
John came to Baptize the Christ and did, Christ came to fulfill the Law and Prophets not destroy them.
When he did this completed the Law and Prophets and was on the cross, he yelled "IT IS FINISHED" And gave up the ghost and died in and to flesh for three days as proof of this death in flesh, in order to bring in the new Covenant laws of love to all, being our propitiation from any and all sin, in the order of Melchizedek, in the original promise to Abraham, 430 years prior to Law being given to the first chosen.
By Faith we are saved and by Faith we do, taking no credit to self, it is Father that does the work through me and all that believe.
Did Christ ever take any credit for himself ever? Did e not say only his Father is good to that rich man that called him good in Matt 19
Did Christ not say that he did not do the works? his Father did them through him?
So do you think that has changed and we are to do the works or trust Father to do them through us as Christ did?
And as The disciples had to wait for Father's Spirit to come and do what at Pentecost? The work Father's through Son right?
Why did they have to wait if Father expects you to do the work?
The wrong type of Cherry picking is whenever it glorifies me, you or any Human flesh, shows something does it not since no flesh pleases Father outside of Son's Christ's you think
So, it has nothing to do with salvation. Since we are ONLY saved IF we are IN Christ, and the Church is HIS Body where that salvation takes place, and denial of faith would remove one from that Church. If faith got one in, then no faith gets one out.
John 20:31, says believes. It does not say believed. Huge difference. Faith must be constant, present tense active. otherwise it does not exist. Can one be saved without faith?
Simply believing in the work of Christ, which is justification by faith, being acceptable to God, does not save us, unless that faith is ever constant. It cannot stop. If it stops, then obviously we are no longer being saved.
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Christ Brother went to the cross for all, and has dealt with sin and death once for all, in order to bring all that change from unbelief to belief to have a free gift of life in Spirit and truth.
So either one has to be perfect of himself to walk in Spirit or be made perfect? And it is proven all over the word in First Testament and second Man's Failure to be perfect in his born of flesh self, starting at the First Adam onward ho!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Al, the way to Christ our perfect Savior, our pinch hitter as in Baseball, stood up to bat for us and hit the ball out of the park, a grand slam for us.
All that is left even if one claims to believe, is whether one appreciates this beyond understanding and by Faith stands in Faith in trust, thanking God with a continuous humbled heart to not sin, and if do it would be one thinking he's got it and guess what a messenger of Satan will come to buffet me, yuo and all who get haughty and belong to the Lord by Faith, and if I do not get corrected I would be a bastard child, so I thank God I am not a Bastard Child, I believe and so do you, I welcome to be humbled
So either one has to be perfect of himself to walk in Spirit or be made perfect? And it is proven all over the word in First Testament and second Man's Failure to be perfect in his born of flesh self, starting at the First Adam onward ho!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Al, the way to Christ our perfect Savior, our pinch hitter as in Baseball, stood up to bat for us and hit the ball out of the park, a grand slam for us.
All that is left even if one claims to believe, is whether one appreciates this beyond understanding and by Faith stands in Faith in trust, thanking God with a continuous humbled heart to not sin, and if do it would be one thinking he's got it and guess what a messenger of Satan will come to buffet me, yuo and all who get haughty and belong to the Lord by Faith, and if I do not get corrected I would be a bastard child, so I thank God I am not a Bastard Child, I believe and so do you, I welcome to be humbled
How many false teachings of men have you grabbed onto anyway.
Spiritual death is a minor thing compared to physical death.
Here it is, clear as scripture can make it.
Adam sinned, was condemned to death, dust to dust Gen 3:19. Man became mortal. Subject to decay, corruption and death. So was the world. This death is confirmed in Rom 5:12, II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14, I Cor 15:12-22,
That this death is what is being defeated, Rom 5:18 says LIFE is the Gift given to all men. I can hardly imagine that spiritual life being given to all men is what you would believe. That all men will be raised because Christ arose from the dead with our mortal nature giving it life, an eternal existence again. We shall all be raised I Cor 15:53 to immortality, incorruptibility. Rev 20:13, all the dead shall be raised.
Very simply, God didn't think it possible to have a relationship with a mortal being that had no eternal existence. What would be the purpose of having one ONLY in this life while we live a futile, purposeless biological existence?
Did you think Christ died a spiritual death and was raised spiritually, not physically?
John 6:39-40 contrasts these two deaths. vs 39 is the physical death being defeated and all men will be raised in the last day with vs 40 the sub-group, those that see and believe will be raised to be with Christ for an eternity.
By reconciling the world, Christ is giving man a choice, life or death, meaning, heaven or hell. He is not saving you from hell, but it is an option. Man is free to choose, just the very same commandment Adam had, life or death. The condemnation is different. His was physical, ours will be spiritual. Christ defeated the first, and made the second an option for man.
You were made alive, physically, so that you are now responsible for your sin. Being dead in trespasses and sins is the Adamic condition. We could have sinned all we wanted to, we all were already condemned to death, non existence.
Being born again is our spiritual renewal of the lost relationship Adam had with God that was to be for an eternity. He lost life, eternal existence. There was no purpose in God having a relatiionship with a man that was going to return to dust in a very short time.
I see two things you need to study, the error of Original Sin.
The Incarnation and its salvific content, why Christ needed to be Incarnate, become man, assume our mortal nature.
Spiritual death is a minor thing compared to physical death.
Here it is, clear as scripture can make it.
Adam sinned, was condemned to death, dust to dust Gen 3:19. Man became mortal. Subject to decay, corruption and death. So was the world. This death is confirmed in Rom 5:12, II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14, I Cor 15:12-22,
That this death is what is being defeated, Rom 5:18 says LIFE is the Gift given to all men. I can hardly imagine that spiritual life being given to all men is what you would believe. That all men will be raised because Christ arose from the dead with our mortal nature giving it life, an eternal existence again. We shall all be raised I Cor 15:53 to immortality, incorruptibility. Rev 20:13, all the dead shall be raised.
Very simply, God didn't think it possible to have a relationship with a mortal being that had no eternal existence. What would be the purpose of having one ONLY in this life while we live a futile, purposeless biological existence?
Did you think Christ died a spiritual death and was raised spiritually, not physically?
John 6:39-40 contrasts these two deaths. vs 39 is the physical death being defeated and all men will be raised in the last day with vs 40 the sub-group, those that see and believe will be raised to be with Christ for an eternity.
By reconciling the world, Christ is giving man a choice, life or death, meaning, heaven or hell. He is not saving you from hell, but it is an option. Man is free to choose, just the very same commandment Adam had, life or death. The condemnation is different. His was physical, ours will be spiritual. Christ defeated the first, and made the second an option for man.
You were made alive, physically, so that you are now responsible for your sin. Being dead in trespasses and sins is the Adamic condition. We could have sinned all we wanted to, we all were already condemned to death, non existence.
Being born again is our spiritual renewal of the lost relationship Adam had with God that was to be for an eternity. He lost life, eternal existence. There was no purpose in God having a relatiionship with a man that was going to return to dust in a very short time.
I see two things you need to study, the error of Original Sin.
The Incarnation and its salvific content, why Christ needed to be Incarnate, become man, assume our mortal nature.