Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[LT]

Do you believe that he will be thrown in the pit to be burned up at judgment ?

I don't know for a fact, because I am not God (the only one who knows and has the right to judge the heart of man), but I have a strong opinion that Hitler will be thrown in the pit on Judgement Day.
His actions showed pride, selfishness, anger, impatience, cruelty, and hatred. These are the opposites of the fruit of the Spirit, and 'by their fruit you will know them".

No faith results in wanton sin.
Faith results in faithfulness

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well lets see what the scriptures say, in revelations it says those that believe and follow Christ are part of the first resurrection, in which the second death has no power over. I would agree with you that God determines that, but the bible is God's word. So in God's word it says some one like Hitler will be thrown in the pit as well.

Here is the part that will blow your mind: Hitler was born and raised Catholic, he was baptized and went through confirmation, accepted and followed Jesus Christ calling himself a Christian and supporting Christian movements. It wasn't tell he was older that he turned his back on Jesus and tried to get rid of Christianity by installing his own religion.

I don't know for a fact, because I am not God (the only one who knows and has the right to judge the heart of man), but I have a strong opinion that Hitler will be thrown in the pit on Judgement Day.
His actions showed pride, selfishness, anger, impatience, cruelty, and hatred. These are the opposites of the fruit of the Spirit, and 'by their fruit you will know them".

 

[LT]

Well lets see what the scriptures say, in revelations it says those that believe and follow Christ are part of the first resurrection, in which the second death has no power over. I would agree with you that God determines that, but the bible is God's word. So in God's word it says some one like Hitler will be thrown in the pit as well.

Here is the part that will blow your mind: Hitler was born and raised Catholic, he was baptized and went through confirmation, accepted and followed Jesus Christ calling himself a Christian and supporting Christian movements. It wasn't tell he was older that he turned his back on Jesus and tried to get rid of Christianity by installing his own religion.

If he is not saved, then he never was.

A person can pretend, but without real faith, there is no salvation.
What are we saved from? a future event: Judgement.
Can you be spared from Judgement, then unspared?
no. it is a future event. either you will be or won't be spared. God is not bound by time. He does not adopt a child, then disown them.

He is not going to say "you will not face Judgement", and then bring us to Judgement. God does not lie.

 

[VCO]

Your conclusions are half right. If a person returns to willful sinning does not mean necessarily they were never believers. In fact this is the major reason believers fall. It is why the view of instant salvation is a myth.
A lack of confession is not that they don't have sin but that they don't care any longer.

There you go with your ERRONEOUS Presuppositions about what we teach and Believe. I said EVERY TIME if they leave, NEVER TO RETURN TO GOD, they prove they never were true believers. I never said "if they willfully sin".

Do you have to lie, or distort, or misquote everytime, what we said to try to support your theology. You would think by now that you would be way more careful about quoting us ACCURATELY, because you know very well who is the father of all lies.

NOW, let me make it perfectly clear. If the willful sinner that claims to be a Christian, DOES NOT GET A SPANKING FROM GOD, he certainly validates that he never was a real Christian, and that he lied about Knowing Jesus intimately as LORD.

Surely you KNOW the OT LAW frequently pictures spiritual truths that became a spiritual reality in the NT.

Deuteronomy 23:2 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] No one of illegitimate birth may enter the LORD’s assembly; . . .

And by know you should know that in the NT we are baptized or immersed into the assembly, that is the spiritual Body of Christ, the Church (born again). We have told you that often enough. And that immersion into His spiritual Body, makes us Children of GOD according to John 1:12-13.

Hebrews 12:6-8 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

In other words GOD does not spank the children that have NEVER been adopted by HIM.

Romans 8:14-16 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear,
but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons,
by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
[SUP]16 [/SUP] The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

 

[kennethcadwell]

No God does not disown anybody. This is why you can not believe in salvation lost because you always want to put it on God. Put the fault where it really belongs on man.

I have shown multiple times over the past few days by scripture, study reverence rather it come from study bibles or well known biblical scholars who spend most of their days studying scriptures in original text and translated text as well as asking God in their search for knowledge. They all disagree with the once saved always saved theology, showing in multiple scriptures how this is not biblical.

If he is not saved, then he never was.

A person can pretend, but without real faith, there is no salvation.
What are we saved from? a future event: Judgement.
Can you be spared from Judgement, then unspared?
no. it is a future event. either you will be or won't be spared. God is not bound by time. He does not adopt a child, then disown them.

 

[Cassian]

Well lets see what the scriptures say, in revelations it says those that believe and follow Christ are part of the first resurrection, in which the second death has no power over. I would agree with you that God determines that, but the bible is God's word. So in God's word it says some one like Hitler will be thrown in the pit as well.

Here is the part that will blow your mind: Hitler was born and raised Catholic, he was baptized and went through confirmation, accepted and followed Jesus Christ calling himself a Christian and supporting Christian movements. It wasn't tell he was older that he turned his back on Jesus and tried to get rid of Christianity by installing his own religion.

I pointed that out earlier and also used Stalin who was Orthodox. Was Orthodox until sometime in College when he met a man by the name of Carl Marx. It seems he switched religions also.
But the point is clearly that a believer can lose faith and can reject Christ at any time in his life time. There is no such thing as a one-time, mental, emotional affirmation of faith that grants immediate salvation. Salvation is inherited at the end based on man's faithfulness and becoming perfected.
But that went over their heads before and probably still will. It is mainly for the silent readers that they will be able to discern the difference.

 

[VCO]

Do you believe that he will be thrown in the pit to be burned up at judgment ?

Burned up ? ? ? If you mean into the Lake of Fire, and burned into NOTHINGNESS, ceasing to exist, NO! Hell is FOREVER!

Matthew 10:28 (ASV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Soul by the way is the human mind, in fact the Greek word for soul is psyche.

It says NOTHING about destroying the rebellious self-centered human spirit of the unbeliever, which will be in torment FOREVER.

Revelation 14:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And a third angel followed them and spoke with a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] he will also drink the wine of God’s wrath, which is mixed full strength in the cup of His anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.

 

[Cassian]

If he is not saved, then he never was.

A person can pretend, but without real faith, there is no salvation.
What are we saved from? a future event: Judgement.
Can you be spared from Judgement, then unspared?
no. it is a future event. either you will be or won't be spared. God is not bound by time. He does not adopt a child, then disown them.

He is not going to say "you will not face Judgement", and then bring us to Judgement. God does not lie.

See what I mean? There is not a christian alive or was alive that was ever finitely saved during his lifetime. We take possession of our salvation and it is up to us to keep it or lose it. Adam had the same situation, the same command that we have with God.

By the way we are NOT being saved from Hell. We are being saved to perfection. Hell is a negative. it is the consequence of not doing the will of God as a created creature. God created man for a purpose, He created us to be free because He wanted to have a creature that would freely love and obey, not because God Himself decreed that man would. Adam was working toward his salvation, to be made perfect and attain immortality. He failed, Christ reversed the fall, is giving us immortality though His resurrection, but we still need to be conformed to His Image. God is not just treading water with man and saves us from hell.
By His redemption of the world from death, hell and heaven become a reality for man. If man remained in His adamic state, we would just continue to die and return to dust. The world would remain in a state of decay, corruption and death. Satan would always be the ruler over the earth. He reigned with the power of death. Christ defeated death, thus Him.

 

[VCO]

then why would the New Testament spend so much time talking about the 'chosen' and 'predestined' and 'elect' if none of these words ring true?

If God chooses all, then only a fool would say that any are really chosen. The Apostle were not fools.
How can we call ourselves "God's Chosen People" if there are people going to hell that God also chose?
This isn't just logic, this is Scripture.

I would suggest going to a Bible website, and search the words: elect, predestined, chosen, and called.
Your eyes will be opened to how often the writers use these words, and how they use them in context.

Or even READ the Parable of Ten Virgins, where he said to the foolish virgins who did't bother to see if they had the OIL (the Holy Spirit); "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

 

[VCO]

What will He do, force me to follow Him? That would make my faith a forced believe, would it not?

. . .

No, if your Faith is genuine, the "REAL DEAL", you will want to follow Him out of LOVE because He first loved you. No desire to follow Him, proves you do not have the "REAL DEAL".

The distance between NOT being SAVED and being genuinely SAVED, is 18 inches.

That is the approximately the same distance between what is in your Head and what is in your HEART.

 

[Cassian]

There you go with your ERRONEOUS Presuppositions about what we teach and Believe. I said EVERY TIME if they leave, NEVER TO RETURN TO GOD, they prove they never were true believers. I never said "if they willfully sin".

Do you have to lie, or distort, or misquote everytime, what we said to try to support your theology. You would think by now that you would be way more careful about quoting us ACCURATELY, because you know very well who is the father of all lies.

NOW, let me make it perfectly clear. If the willful sinner that claims to be a Christian, DOES NOT GET A SPANKING FROM GOD, he certainly validates that he never was a real Christian, and that he lied about Knowing Jesus intimately as LORD.

Surely you KNOW the OT LAW frequently pictures spiritual truths that became a spiritual reality in the NT.

Deuteronomy 23:2 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]No one of illegitimate birth may enter the LORD’s assembly; . . .

And by know you should know that in the NT we are baptized or immersed into the assembly, that is the spiritual Body of Christ, the Church (born again). We have told you that often enough. And that immersion into His spiritual Body, makes us Children of GOD according to John 1:12-13.

Hebrews 12:6-8 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

In other words GOD does not spank the children that have NEVER been adopted by HIM.

Romans 8:14-16 (ESV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear,
but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons,
by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

There you go with your ERRONEOUS Presuppositions about what we teach and Believe. I said EVERY TIME if they leave, NEVER TO RETURN TO GOD, they prove they never were true believers. I never said "if they willfully sin".

which is just the point I made. It does not mean at all that they were NOT true believers. It means they were unfaithful, they did not endure to the end to inherit salvation.
YOu seem to think that even in the secular world, that if a man bequeaths to his children his accummulated wealth in a will as heirs, that they get it at the time of the will. They will inherit it at the end when He dies. Many wills also have conditions. If the conditions are not met prior to the death of the Testator, that person will not inherit the wealth.

It is not a complex biblical teaching. But when one imposes false doctrines of other men, scripture becomes contradictory, and quite meaningless.
All the other texts you quoted have conditions attached to them. They assume, for one thing that you are still in the Spirit. Man has consistanlly rejected chastisement, reproach, correction even from the Church. But man is free, He is allowed to do as he desires. Which is why God can be just in His judgements. If it was up to God, there would be no need for judgement, But then God is not judging what He does, but you. Salvation is NOT based on one emotional decision, but a lifetime of faithfulness.
There is NOTHING in scripture that teaches your view. It never has and never will.
You are welcome to hold to those beliefs but it is NOT as scripture has always meant.

 

[Cassian]

Or even READ the Parable of Ten Virgins, where he said to the foolish virgins who did't bother to see if they had the OIL (the Holy Spirit); "I NEVER KNEW YOU".

Again the parable defeats your theology. They had the Holy Spirit. But they thought that they could live without him, but were surprised when it was announced he was coming and needed more oil. Christ came and they were not ready. Never says they never had the Holy Spirit, Oil. Same as with those at the judgment in Matt 25:31-46. They thought that if they had done these works in the past that qualified them now. Same as your theology. Having faith in the beginning, and doing some good works in the past does not save a man. We must continue in faith, never stop, continue to be perfected, endure to the end, inherit the promise.

 

[Cassian]

No, if your Faith is genuine, the "REAL DEAL", you will want to follow Him out of LOVE because He first loved you. No desire to follow Him, proves you do not have the "REAL DEAL".

The distance between NOT being SAVED and being genuinely SAVED, is 18 inches.

That is the approximately the same distance between what is in your Head and what is in your HEART.

It is not the distance, but the length of time. For me is has been 70 years. Not one, not two, not just 40 years in the beginning. But to the end of my life.

 

[tourist]

I think the distance is closer to 12 inches Vic - further measurements and study may be required to resolve this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What will He do, force me to follow Him? That would make my faith a forced believe, would it not?


If He forces you back, then is that faith really a true faith?

Again, read what it says, God does not force you to come back. You willingly go back. Why? Because he is your sheppard. And you hear his voice and know it. Again, I was a prodigal son once, I heard him and willingly went back. Because I KNEW I was in a place I did not want to be, And I knew unless I went with my master. nothing good could come from it (I was at rock bottom, right where he wanted me)

So, if I had that fellowship and lost it and decided to not come back, that fellowship was false in the first place? I assure you that fellowship was real. But, if I had decided not to go back, that would not had made that not real. We all see with different eyes.

I assure you that if you hear your masters voice and have no desire to go back. That fellowship yo uthought you had was not real. You can claim it was till your blue in the face. I would not believe it. If it was real. You would know where you left. and where you are now. and would willingly return.

EG, from the bottom of my heart, I know very well that I cannot stay in the pig pen I am in and still think I will make it to Heaven. Without having that fellowship with Him, then I am not in Him and if I am not in Him then I am lost, as not being in the Light, but darkness. I know that I cannot continue in this lasciviousness, seeing that it opposes the Spirit.

Clutz buddy, With all my heart., I want you to see and realise that even on your best day (the day with less sin) you are still totally unworthy of Gods love and his precious gift. God saved us when we were at our worse. You can not sit and tell me we would ever get that sinful again, After we have been born of God. How can one resist the chastening of the HS. Again. How?? Do you realise how painfull that is (did your father spank you. Maybe it took a few spankings, but did his message not finally get through??)
if we are never as sinful as we were when we got saved, how could we ever be to sinfull we could lose salvation? This makes no sense brother.

I know that experience was true, please do not tell me that it was not. I, yes I, I myself, saw Him leave EG. I saw it. God desires those who freely chooses Him, He will not force Himself on one if they do not desire to continue that fellowship.

Not recieving blessing from God, not feeling his presence, because you have walked away, does not mean you are no longer his son. He still loves you, and he will still keep his promise, I believe this is part of his chastening work on our souls. to get us to come back, it sure worked with me)

Yo umay get to heaven and recieve alot (or all) wood hay and straw. and have no reward to show for it, But as paul tells us, You are still saved, Even though as through fire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I Cor 13:13. Of the three faith, hope, and love, it is love that is the greatest. If we do not love God, we will not ,cannot serve Him, we don't serve Him, we cannot be saved. It is not complex to understand.

You can not love God until he first loved you. If you have not been saved, you have not felt Gods love, thus have no capacity to love God.

You may THINK you love God. But unless you have been born again, Saved by his love, and given his ETERNAL life. You have never experienced Gods true love, If you have never experienced it (which I can say from what you preach you have never experienced it) you have no capacity to show him your love. Period Your not only fooling yourself that you have experienced his love, your fooling yourself into thinking you can love him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where do you believe Hitler is, or will be when put in front of the judgment seat ?

If he never came to Christ before he died, (which I highy doubt he did) He will be delivered to Christ for judgment.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe he is awaiting the Final Judgement, but currently in Hades (spiritual prison).

I am not apposed to the other views, as Scripture is not perfectly clear on the subject.
It will be made clear on the Last Day.

I seem to remember a man by the name of Saul who was just as evil as hitler. Who when Christ confronted him, he came to his senses, If he died three days after this, he would be in heaven today, Luckily for us, God allowed him to live and write over half the NT.

Not sayign this happened to Hitler. we can not know. Just saying to use Hitler as an example to prove their false gospel of works is not very valid. Because all over scripture we have men like him who came to Christ and did many wonderful things for Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have done with scripture that a lot of other men do as well. Make one thing dogmatic, such as this metaphor. You extend the metaphor way out of proportion to what scripture teaches elsewhere. It is why you have so many contradictions in your theology. You hold to this True Faith, which is meaningless really. Man has faith, many different kinds of faith, but the fact he has faith is what matters. A person possessing your True FAITH, can reject Christ and thus no longer have any faith. It is not up to God that you are faithful. It is all up to you. Your desire, your will that determines IF you will be saved. Which is another false assumptions. Having possession is not salvation. Salvation is inherited at the end, if we endure, if we have actually walked the entire way toward perfection, that we did not give up the race, the journey, the walk.

If men have true faith, it may dwindle. but it will never fade away,

you can deny this all you want, your denying what God said. then again, you love doing this. so it does not surprise me at all you would do this also. You will never take yourself out of the picture, so you will never find Christ. (although as long as yuo live, there is still hope you will realise this and humble yourself. It has happened to many people before you, it will happen to many people after you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you believe that he will be thrown in the pit to be burned up at judgment ?

is that for LT or any of us to decide, or is that For God to decide? Why are you asking a question no one can answer? nor even has the right to answer?