Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Jabberjaw]

I am happy to report I personally know some born again Catholics, so I will differ with you a bit. Two of them that I know are Priests, and yes I know they are the exception to the rule. They all seem to have one specific thing in common, they hunger to understand the Word, and do study the Bible for themselves. I see a major split coming in the Catholic Church, between the many that worship Mary, and the few that worship Jesus Christ as LORD.

I will tell you the story of one that I had to joy of explaining the gospel to, and watched him grow spiritually, even though he vowed to stay with the Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit in me put it on my heart NOT to tell him he needed to find a Bible Teaching Church, because GOD is Using him right where he is. Besides, one of the two born again Priests that I know is his Priest. That Priest's name is Father Baptista. And after hearing him explain the gospel of Jesus Christ in a sermon at a funeral Service, I had to compliment him on his sermon, I said: "With name like that and a spiritually gifted teaching style like that, you should have been a Baptist Minister." He didn't appreciate the joke about his name, but he sure thanked me for encouraging him to continue to preach like that.

Now back to my friend Bob. After I led him in prayer to become born again, (I could tell he was hungering for the truth that night); I bought him a NASB with lots of cross references and a nice concordance, the first chance I had. He reads it faithfully daily. The LORD gave him a very special ministry after he got grounded in the word. He owns a small body shop, and when he sees a hitch-hiker coming through town, he stops and says, "I can offer you a place to sleep for the night, a hot supper and breakfast, and four hours of work to earn $40 to help you on your trip, but I have one condition. You have to sit down with me after supper and do a one hour Bible study." YES, he teaches from the Bible that I bought him, and is content to remain Catholic.

Isaiah 55:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

You teaching a catholic? ill go no farther as it says:

 Matthew 15:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

 

[Cassian]

There you go with your ERRONEOUS presuppositions again! Man have they ever pumped your head full of falsehoods. That expression you used "emotional decision", NEVER CAME FROM ME, it came from your False Teachers and/or YOUR OWN HEAD.

Romans 8:14 (ASV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

WE WERE LED BY THE SPIRIT TO RECEIVE JESUS AS LORD.

Present tense, active, continuing again. There is NO Future in these words. They must continue, if they don't continue, one is obviosly not being led by the Spirit.
You cannot change the meaning of scripture. You cannot change history. You have lost on two counts from the beginning. You are teaching pure Anselmian atonement, and Luther's notion of faith only. Two man made imposed theories upon scripture. What can I say, you blowing in the wind.

 

[notuptome]

You teaching a catholic? ill go no farther as it says:

 Matthew 15:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

It also says that he that winneth souls is wise. Catholics need to be saved just like all the heathen in the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jabberjaw]

You teaching a catholic? ill go no farther as it says:

 Matthew 15:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

It also says that he that winneth souls is wise. Catholics need to be saved just like all the heathen in the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The lost cannot save the lost.

 

[VCO]

You teaching a catholic? ill go no farther as it says:

 Matthew 15:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Again you just described yourself and your teachers. If you read the entire context you will see, that was said about the Pharisees who believed their works were what was Saving and Sanctifying them.

(Mark 7:14-23). Jesus

then turned and warned the crowd against the religious leaders’ teachings. He said a man is not defiled by what goes into his mouth, but rather his defiled condition is evidenced by what comes out of his mouth. The Pharisees were wrong in thinking their washings kept them spiritually clean.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

Ephesians 2:5 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Hebrews 10:29 (ESV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

It certainly appears to me that this time you opened your mouth and SHOT YOURSELF IN THE FOOT. I guess we finally gave you enough rope.

Matthew 28:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

I led Bob to become a disciple of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Now you are calling that a bad thing. BOB loves the LORD, and serves HIM because he LOVES HIM, you do not. By their fruit you will know them, and your fruit is rotten.

Matthew 25:40 (NKJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

1 John 2:10-11 (ESV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Butwhoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

3 John 1:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.


Isaiah 5:20 (GW)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] How horrible it will be for thosewho call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn what is bitter into something sweet and what is sweet into something bitter.

Christ recognized seven types of Christian Churches in the first three Chapters of Revelation. WHO ARE YOU TO RECOGNIZE LESS?

 

[homwardbound]

To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21, not the righteous who are born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9.

A question here: So the righteous per God by Faith in and through Son, that do not want to sin, yet sin, and are trapped as they do what they do not want to do are what?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Again you just described yourself and your teachers. If you read the entire context you will see, that was said about the Pharisees who believed their works were what was Saving and Sanctifying them.


Ephesians 2:5 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Hebrews 10:29 (ESV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

It certainly appears to me that this time you opened your mouth and SHOT YOURSELF IN THE FOOT. I guess we finally gave you enough rope.

Matthew 28:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

I led Bob to become a disciple of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Now you are calling that a bad thing. BOB loves the LORD, and serves HIM because he LOVES HIM, you do not. By their fruit you will know them, and your fruit is rotten.

Matthew 25:40 (NKJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

1 John 2:10-11 (ESV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Butwhoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

3 John 1:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.


Isaiah 5:20 (GW)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] How horrible it will be for thosewho call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn what is bitter into something sweet and what is sweet into something bitter.

Christ recognized seven types of Christian Churches in the first three Chapters of Revelation. WHO ARE YOU TO RECOGNIZE LESS?

The only thing worse than two people being lost is two people being lost thinking they are saved, I noticed you quoted Matthew 28:19, even emphasizing "make disciples of all nations" yet stopped before the next part (even word) of the verse "baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost"...

BTW: him having to "become a disciple" does that mean you agree man must do something?

 

[homwardbound]

it is obvious you are unlearned.

1. Hell was already going to be occupied before man was created
2. heaven was already occupied by 2/3 of the heavenly host.
3. man was created in a way God wanted to serve him.
4. God tested man, Do you trust me to supply all your needs, or will you trust self.
5. Man chose to trsut self, and in doing so died spiritually (spiritual separation)
6. God could have left it status quo, and just sent man to hell, but he loved his creation.
7. He showed how he was going to redeem mankind from the begining, The first death in history, to cover nakedness, the animal sacrifice (cain gave human good and it was rejected) the continual animal sacrifices, And even the sacrifices in the law. to prove man can not enter the presence of God unclean (of course ALL of these innocent deaths of clean animals represented Christ, who would cleanse us with his own blood)

the problem is, Very few want to have the faith of Abel, Way to many, like yourself, instead want to give human good sacrifices (your works) and think God will recieve it,

Well news flash, He will reject your human works just like he rejected cains, and as cain was cast out, so to will you and those like you if you do not repent, and just trust God as Abel did.

Then after all my flesh works burn up, I, me goes through the fire to be burned up as well, or purified as by what my motive was, and it better be better than the Pharisees. And that is fair (phar) I See, praying we all do here
Thanks

Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

 

[VCO]

Present tense, active, continuing again. There is NO Future in these words. They must continue, if they don't continue, one is obviosly not being led by the Spirit.
You cannot change the meaning of scripture. You cannot change history. You have lost on two counts from the beginning. You are teaching pure Anselmian atonement, and Luther's notion of faith only. Two man made imposed theories upon scripture. What can I say, you blowing in the wind.

Of course, Led By the Spirit is a life long real experience, a genuine spiritual characteristic of the born again Christian. NO born again eternally alive human spirit in you - - - will result in falling away.

Now that you are finally looking at verb tenses, what verb tense are these:

Ephesians 2:5 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 8:24 (GW)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] We were saved with this hope in mind. If we hope for something we already see, it's not really hope. Who hopes for what can be seen?

Ephesians 1:13 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and when you believed in Him, you were also sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[SUP]2 [/SUP] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (GW)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] We always have to thank God for you, brothers and sisters. You are loved by the Lord and we thank God that in the beginning he chose you to be saved through a life of spiritual devotion and faith in the truth.

 

[notuptome]

The lost cannot save the lost.

Funny how the Lord used a donkey to declare His word when He needed to do so.

Paul observed that even when the lost preach Christ of contention Christ is still preached. They may suppose it for harm but God can use it for His purpose.

God alone is able to save. God uses the vessel of His choosing to accomplish that which He has determined.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[homwardbound]

Amazing how severe the trust in self is. That anyone would believe such stuff.

personally, I for whatever reason had to go through this very attitude, that I have to and want to, wanted to, and had to, caused my conflict in resting to, Father's finished work for us all through Son
Which is what is incredibly amazing, so today I respond in entering his Courts, (entered) with thanksgiving and praise, unto spreading the news God just love you, you, you and you.
God is the creator right?
Mankind is the creation right?
So since God is the creator, what makes anyone think by what they do or not do, God will respond to them as good or bad, when no one is good except Father?
So if I just respond in thanksgiving and praise, am I in the proper place that i was created for?

If I create, is God going to respond to me? as in oh wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what a good person?
People do this and it does make us feel oh so good does it not? And if we are rebuked, we get mad, which is what flesh does,whether one shows this or not to others, its flesh, is that not a carnal mindset, that Paul wrote about to the Corinthians? And Hebrews states in Hebrews 5:11-6:6? to be perfect, mature in Faith if God permits
Ask in truth and we shall receive, but if we ask with the wrong motives, how can one expect to receive, see?
James talks about this, we do not receive because we ask amiss.
So each of us might need to reexamine self, and see truth over errors that we all have being in unredeemed flesh
Hope we all stop to learn truth from error of flesh attitudes that cause wars since the fall

 

[VCO]

The only thing worse than two people being lost is two people being lost thinking they are saved, I noticed you quoted Matthew 28:19, even emphasizing "make disciples of all nations" yet stopped before the next part (even word) of the verse "baptizing them in the name of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost"...

BTW: him having to "become a disciple" does that mean you agree man must do something?

Having been saved, you will desire to and will follow HIM in obedience, NOT HAVE TO. Last time, just make sure everyone KNOWS how you distort what we teach and believe into a LIE, to try to discredit true believers.

The motive for OBEDIENCE is ALWAYS so that we can show LOVE for HIM WHO first LOVED US and SAVED US. Recieving HIM as LORD, becoming a disciple, is PURELY a work of the Holy Spirit, NOT A WORK OF THE FLESH. And that Recieving HIM as LORD and MASTER, happens in the mind of our born again human spirit that HE brought to Eternal Life (past tense); it is not a product of the fleshly mind between our ears. ALL the GLORY for SAVING US, belongs to GOD, and none of it belongs to what we did in the flesh.

I have arrived at the point where GOD has put it on my heart to shake the dust from my feet and go on to someone else. That applies to both you Jabberjaw and Cassian.

 

[Sirk]

Having been saved, you will desire to and will follow HIM in obedience, NOT HAVE TO. Last time, just make sure everyone KNOWS how you distort what we teach and believe into a LIE, to try to discredit true believers.

The motive for OBEDIENCE is ALWAYS so that we can show LOVE for HIM WHO first LOVED US and SAVED US. Recieving HIM as LORD, becoming a disciple, is PURELY a work of the Holy Spirit, NOT A WORK OF THE FLESH. And that Recieving HIM as LORD and MASTER, happens in the mind of our born again human spirit that HE brought to Eternal Life (past tense); it is not a product of the fleshly mind between our ears. ALL the GLORY for SAVING US, belongs to GOD, and none of it belongs to what we did in the flesh.

I have arrived at the point where GOD has put it on my heart to shake the dust from my feet and go on to someone else. That applies to both you Jabberjaw and Cassian.

I don't understand why it's so difficult for people to understand that kingdom work is but a symptom of a relationship with Christ that is made right thru work that Christ has already done. All the work is DONE. it is out of grateful obedience that the saved sinner serves the master.

 

[homwardbound]

Yeah people are so unlearned.

1. If someone holds up a gift to you. It does not mean you have recieved it, it means the gift has APPEARED to you.
2. If a gift is shown to you. it does not mean you have been given it. It means it is OFFERED.
3. You said everyone is saved, and paul proved this in titus, this is NOT TRUE. no matter how you try to twist it.
4. Santa? Salvation is not like santa, Santa gives gifts to everyone, and they may snuff their noses at a gift. but the gift is still THEIRS, it is their property to do what they wish, Salvation is NO ONE property but God's.
5. Chose this day to whome you will serve? What does that have to do with salvation? You can not serve God unless you are saved, all you can do is serve self. we must be BORN again before we can serve God.

this everyone is saved universalism is from Satan, You have two possible positions in the spiritual world.

1. Dead to Christ. on your way to eternal judgment, NEEDING SAVED
2. ALIVE to Christ, Having been SAVED from his wrath through his blood.

I clearly did read your response. You clearly do not understand what salvation is.

Praying for all to see what you said here, praying we all are going to come to see this truth is real, as I remember in the past being caught up in the works programs of this world's dross

 

[Alligator]

To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21, not the righteous who are born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9.

A question here: So the righteous per God by Faith in and through Son, that do not want to sin, yet sin, and are trapped as they do what they do not want to do are what?

If they continue to sin willfully, as mailmandan described above, and do not truly repent of that sin, they will be lost.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Having been saved, you will desire to and will follow HIM in obedience, NOT HAVE TO. Last time, just make sure everyone KNOWS how you distort what we teach and believe into a LIE, to try to discredit true believers.

The motive for OBEDIENCE is ALWAYS so that we can show LOVE for HIM WHO first LOVED US and SAVED US. Recieving HIM as LORD, becoming a disciple, is PURELY a work of the Holy Spirit, NOT A WORK OF THE FLESH. And that Recieving HIM as LORD and MASTER, happens in the mind of our born again human spirit that HE brought to Eternal Life (past tense); it is not a product of the fleshly mind between our ears. ALL the GLORY for SAVING US, belongs to GOD, and none of it belongs to what we did in the flesh.

I have arrived at the point where GOD has put it on my heart to shake the dust from my feet and go on to someone else. That applies to both you Jabberjaw and Cassian.

So now you're back to it being all God, so if anyone is not or does not get saved, it is His or His Holy Spirit that is at fault.

You see, you guys can't have it both ways. You just can't see that by the Grace of God, (not because we deserve it) Jesus did what we could not, but He will NOT obey His own Laws FOR YOU, that part is on us, it is the part of "excepting" Him. AKA "believing on Him".

 

[homwardbound]

Your conclusions are half right. If a person returns to willful sinning does not mean necessarily they were never believers. In fact this is the major reason believers fall. It is why the view of instant salvation is a myth.
A lack of confession is not that they don't have sin but that they don't care any longer.

Really as Paul states this
Romans 10:9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The above statement, bypasses the death and burial, and any self works
Why? Do you beleive?

 

[Sirk]

If a child willfully disobeys his/her parents does this mean that they don't believe in their parents? Does it mean that their parents no longer love them or will not discipline? Of course not. Our days are numbered and if your name is written in the book of life it will not be erased. Conversely, if your name is not in the book of life it will not be added. You guys are arguing that which you do not know.....who God has predestined to be saved. I'm pretty sure that's why it tells us to work out OUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[homwardbound]

Look at the story of the Prodigal Son, the Son did not have to return, had he not he would still be lost, but he repented and like a good father, the Son was restored...

Will Father leave us alone, those that told Father they beleive Father, Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

 

[homwardbound]

Thats not what the bible teaches that is called a heresy a false doctrine

That is just such a shame then for I am, one of these OSAS ers
Psalm 118:17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord.
Psalm 141:4 Incline not my heart to any evil thing, to practise wicked works with men that work iniquity: and let me not eat of their dainties.
Ecclesiastes 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.




Jeremiah 25:6 and go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

What is your Motive?