The Letter to the Romans...

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Mar 12, 2014
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In Rom. 9 we see the "unconditional" election of God. "For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of words but of Him who calls), It was said to her, the older shall serve the younger." 9:11-12. The unconditional election is true, and the call of God is all powerful in saving us; But, on the other hand/side, man's side in salvation, we are also involved in our sal. because we must "call upon the lord, 10:13, for Him to CALL us to Himself for sal.. God and man are both, 100% involved. Each does His/his,her, part. :eek: But the bottom line is "you did not choose Me, no, I have chosen you." Love, Hoffco
Rom 9 is Paul refuting arguments he knew the Jews would have in God casting them off and grafting in the Gentiles, [Rom 11], it is not about how we today are saved.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Yes as the Gentiles are grafted into the tree, by God we are one not two, Thanks Doug
But how can the Gentiles who were NOT God's chosen/elect now be grafted in? Calvinism has a lot of explaining to do.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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So see flesh is under law, and always will be, and Spirit of god is the Law giver to flesh to kill flesh and eat, and be alive in Spirit and truth, which what Christ came for to give us life more abundantly in Spirit and truth provided to all in the resurrected Christ if one believes this that Christ is alive
As Paul said it by passing the death, burial, right into the resurrected Christ, he is alive and wants to give us this life if we believe so
Romans 4:24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
[h=3]Romans 4:24[/h]Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]24 [/SUP]It was for us, too, assuring us that God will accept us in the same way he accepted Abraham—when we believe the promises of God who brought back Jesus our Lord from the dead.


Romans 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.



Romans 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
[h=3]Romans 6:9[/h]Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Christ rose from the dead and will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him.


Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
[h=3]Romans 7:4[/h]Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Your “husband,” your master, used to be the Jewish law; but you “died,” as it were, with Christ on the cross; and since you are “dead,” you are no longer “married to the law,” and it has no more control over you. Then you came back to life again when Christ did and are a new person. And now you are “married,” so to speak, to the one who rose from the dead, so that you can produce good fruit, that is, good deeds for God.


Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
[h=3]Romans 8:11[/h]Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And if the Spirit of God, who raised up Jesus from the dead, lives in you, he will make your dying bodies live again after you die, by means of this same Holy Spirit living within you.


Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
[h=3]Romans 10:9[/h]Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord and believe in your own heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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But how can the Gentiles who were NOT God's chosen/elect now be grafted in? Calvinism has a lot of explaining to do.
All religions of man, have a lot of explaining to do, and praying there good works not of faith and or of Faith is better than the religious leaders and pharisees of Jesus's day, for Prostitutes will enter before they
religion is based on man's interpretation taking away the sovereignty of God appearing as if it is not
God is the creator and we are the creation
So God being the creator, are we to get God to respond to us, by a religion? Or are we being the creation to respond to God?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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[h=1]THE CHRISTIAN LIFE A PARTICIPATION NOT AN IMITATION[/h] [h=2]CHAPTER I[/h] 0NE cannot make a study of the New Testament without experiencing something of the nature of a shock, in view of the glaring difference between the Christian life as we are wont to live it, and the ideal of the Master. The disheartening incongruities, and the grievous contradictions are so painfully evident, that even those who have only a superficial knowledge of the Saviour's Word-yea, one dare say, even those who have never looked into the pages of the New Testament-are shocked. What little faith they may have, is shaken.
When one holds up before the picture of the Christian life as set forth by the Apostles, that which today goes under the name, one staggers. The emaciated body of a dying friend-not to say his corpse-could not stand in more violent contrast with him who in the days of health and vigour walked at our side.
It is not my object to pick to pieces the modern Christian. I have no quarrel with the Church. I am not pretending to play the role of an iconoclast. I have been for ten years a missionary of the Cross, and have no thought of deserting the ranks. My only purpose in calling attention to our failure as Christians, is to point the way to the victorious life in Christ for those who are conscious of their spiritua poverty, and "hunger and thirst after righteousness."
It is for the Christian who finds himself at the brink of despair, because of the gruesome picture he present when all the while he longs to faithfully reflect the Master' image, that I feel that I have a message. It is for the on whose thirst for the water of life, far from being quenched, consumes him, and leaves him sick with yearn ings, that I fain would unfold the secret of the abundant life-the life of which Jesus spoke when He said that "rivers of living water" would flow from the innermost being of those who believed. It is to the one who is wearie of hollow mockeries, sick of shams, who has become the victim of a secret self-loathing,--one who feels that as Christian he should be free from the power of sin, an who, in spite of all his struggles is crushed by a sense c failure-that I long to bring the message of the Cross. It is to those who pant for power,-that power which is from on High-those who long to have their life and service ministry, and preaching, charged with the Spirit of the living God that I feel that I have a word which will not fail to usher in a new day.
But we must briefly summarize the requisites of the Christian life before we enter upon a statement of my thesis. We are to walk as Jesus walked (I John ii. 6 We are to love our enemies (Matt. v. 44). We are 1 forgive as Jesus forgave-even as He who in the Shan and anguish of the Cross looked down upon those wt blasphemed Him, while they murdered Him, and forgave (Col. iii. 13). We are to be aggressively kind towards those who hate us, yea, we are actually to pray for those who despitefully use us (Matt. v. 44). We are to be overcomers-more than conquerors (Rom. viii. 37). We are to give thanks in all things believing that all things, even those which blast our fondest hopes, work together for our good (Rom. viii. 28; Eph. v. 20).
We are to be careful for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving to let our requests be made known unto God, so that the peace of God which passeth all understanding may guard our hearts and minds (Phil. iv. 6). We are to rejoice in the Lord alway (Phil.iv. 4). We are to think on whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue and if there be any praise (Phil. iv. 8). We are to be holy, for God is holy (1 Pet. i. 16). The Saviour said that if we believed in Him, rivers of waters of life would flow from our innermost being (John vii. 38). We are to stand out in bold, unmistakable contrast from the crooked, perverse world, blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, shining as lights (Phil. ii. 15) . We are positively to hate ourselves not to pamper, nor to caress, nor to seek, nor to love ourselves, but literalyto hate and to renounce our own selves, and that daily (Matt.xvi. 24). We are told that we cannot be Christ's disciples if we do not renounce ourselves utterly and absolutely in all things, and at all times (Luke xiv. 26). Paul tells us that our affections are to be set on things above (Col. iii. 1).
Enough. We dare go no further. It would only increase Our shame, and our pain. We stand indicted. We are not "What Christ would have us to be. If this is the measure of the Christian life, if this is the basis upon which we are to be judged, if this is what God requires of us as Christians, like Isaiah we cry: "Woe is me, for I am undone."
Why does not the Saviour, so tender and so understanding, so loving and so wise, not make requirements more in keeping with human nature? Why does He seem to be so unreasonable? Why does He not demand of us what we might reasonably attain? He bids us soar, yet we have no wings. Talk about the super-man; it is not so much a mere overabundance of man that is required. It seems to be rather man-deified, if I may so speak, which the New Testament pronounces as the true type of Christian. Why does the Saviour go so far beyond the merely natural, and put Christian living on the basis of the supernatural? I protest, it is not natural to love our enemies; it is not natural to rejoice always; it is not natural to be thankful for the things that hurt; it is not natural to hate ourselves; it is not natural to walk as Jesus walked. Have we honestly faced this dilemma? Have we had the courage to face the implications of Christ's Word? Is anything gained by subterfuges, by pretending that the gulf between the humanly possible, and the law of Christ (i.e. what we can attain by nature and what God requires in His Word) is after all not so great?
If no satisfactory answer can be given (my contention as stated in the following chapters is that there can) the Christian system merits the aspersions of its enemies. It must face the grave charge of over-emphasis,-exaggeration-fanaticism-or whatever we may call this want of adjustment between the law of Christ and human nature.
This is no new dilemma. The great Apostle to the Gentiles, makes no bones about his conviction that human nature, as such, can never attain the ideal of Christ. He does not minimize the overwhelming incongruity. He lets the glaring fact of Christ's law as an utterly unattainable ideal, as something to which human nature, as such, can never adapt itself, stand out in all its naked reality.
Romans vii is witness to that fact. Here we have the Apostle's confession of failure, his cry of despair, his bitter regret, upon finding the Christian ideal unattainable, his groanings over what he found to be a heart-rending dilemma, his honest admission that he actually believes that the requirements of Christ's law, are something to which human nature, as such, struggle as you will, agonize as you will, can never adjust itself. Lest I be misunderstood-lest my readers be shocked by something apparently so unorthodox-I quote Paul's own words: "The good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do... I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but, I see another law in my members (aye, there's the rub) warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Oh wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Rom. vii). Paul struggles. He agonizes. He weeps. He strives as only this moral giant, one of the greatest of all time, could strive. All to no avail. The law of sin, he confesses, like the onrush of a mighty stream, sweeps everything before it.
We do well to face squarely all the shocking aspects of this dilemma. Paul did. He did not throw up any smoke screen over either his own incapacity on the one hand, or the unattainable character of Christ's law on the other. He is astonishingly frank over the fact that in himself (that is, in his flesh, Rom. vii. 18) he can find no good thing. He candidly acknowledges that he delights in God's law, loves' '., but finds it something to which human nature cannot attain. If we will be honest about these things, we will find ourselves led all unconsciously to take certain steps which will most assuredly usher us into a glorious new day. It led Paul to a great discovery. It will lead us.
It was not that Paul, when he wrote Romans vii, was still wilfully disobedient, as in the days prior to the Damascan road crisis. He did love Jesus. He was a soldier of the Cross. He was a consecrated Christian. It was only that he was now seeing himself in a new light-in the blinding light of the Cross of Christ. What before, as a strict disciple of Moses, would have been excusable, now overwhelms him with its magnitude. Innocent little things, attitudes comparatively harmless, insignificant little sins which under the Mosaic law would pass unnoticed if they did not appear to be actual virtues, now break his heart. They are repulsive. They are unbearable. They seem to burn with the fire of hell. They sting like the bite of a scorpion. They stink like a decaying carcass in some slimy pool.
Paul wants to be like Jesus. It is no longer a question of mere ethics. It is no longer a question of right or wrong. Is it Christ-like? That is the burning question. Paul wants to be free. Self-love even in its secret forms, its harmless gestures, nauseates him. He would be like Jesus in all the loveliness of his humility, and of his compassion. He would love God with a pure love and serve Him with that utter singleness of eye which characterized the "only-begotten of the Father." In a paroxysm of self-loathing, and in the anguish of self-despair, the Apostle cries out for deliverance (Rom. vii. 24).
Is there a way out? Yes, there is. Paul found it-we can all find it,
Now my thesis is this: we have been proceeding upon a false basis. We have conceived of the Christian life as an Imitation of Christ. It is not an Imitation of Christ. It is a Participation of Christ. "For we are made partakers of Christ" (Heb. iii. 14). There are good things in Thomas A. Kempis' Irritation of Christ, but the basic idea is false to the principles that underlie the Christian life. To proceed on the basis of Imitation, will plunge us in just the sort of slough of despond Paul found himself in when he wrote Romans vii.
We are not what Christ would have us to be; the Sermon on the Mount does not find expression in our attitudes; sin as a principle is still rampant in our lives; we are not free from envy, pride, self-love, and lust of pleasure; the mountain of secret selfishness still crushes us and in spite of all our efforts remains immovable; there is little joy, so little freedom of spirit, none of that rapture which so characterized the primitive Christians; we agonize, and bleed, and struggle,-but failure dogs our footsteps. What is the matter? We are proceeding upon a false basis. We are attempting to do what the Saviour Himself never expected us to do. The Christian life is not an Imitation.
The great dilemma of which we have been speaking resolves itself into most simple terms when we grasp this distinction between Imitation and Participation.
For, what is impossible to me as an imitator of Christ, domes perfectly natural as a participant of Christ. It is Only when Christ nullifies the force of my inherent "self' life," and communicates to me a Divine life, that Christian F :.-;wing in its true sense, is at all possible for me. I must be born again. "The flesh profiteth nothing." Without Jesus z I can do nothing. I must live in Him and, renouncing my own life, find in Him a "new life."
Now to this "new life," the Christian requirements, so incomprehensible and unattainable while we move in the realm of the "flesh-life," are all simple. They are nothing more nor less than statements regarding its modus operandi. The Sermon on the Mount so far from cramping in any way this new life, is simply a statement of the way it operates.
The trouble is, we have not listened to Jesus. He tells us that we must abide in Him as a branch in the Vine. Matthew v, vi, vii, without John xv, would be like so many freight cars without an engine, or like a whale without water, or a bird without air.
In that upper-room interview, the Master, knowing that it was His last opportunity to impress fundamentals upon His disciples, places the supreme emphasis upon this mystical union, this spiritual oneness with Himself of all believers-this sublime fact of participation. "Abide in Me and I in you." Our failures only confirm the Saviour's Word, for He said: "Without Me ye can do nothing."
No, we are not called upon to imitate Christ. The truth of the matter is, there would be little virtue after all in that sort of thing. Paul said so, in effect, in the oft-quoted 1 Corinthians xiii-the love chapter. It could only be a wooden, artificial thing. Even here Jesus would say: "The flesh profiteth nothing." Some years ago in the country where I was doing missionary work, this sort of thing was carried to its nth degree, when a zealous devotee had himself crucified, literally nailed to a cross where his parents found him dead, when they came to his rescue. The Church rightly does not acclaim that sort of thing, and yet theoretically she proceeds, in the case of vast multitudes of her children, upon this false basis of Imitation.
The 'Christian is not called upon to strain over a role as an actor would agonize over lines poorly learned. The
Christian life in the thought of God is infinitely more blessed and compelling. "We are made partakers of Christ" (Heb. iii. 14) . Exceeding great and precious promises are given us, "that by these we might be partakers of the Divine Nature" (ii Pet. i. 4). The Believer is grafted into the Trunk of the Eternal Godhead. "I am the Vine, Ye are the Branches."
"The riches of the glory of this mystery-Christ in you the hope of glory" (Col. i. 27).
 
Mar 12, 2014
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All religions of man, have a lot of explaining to do, and praying there good works not of faith and or of Faith is better than the religious leaders and pharisees of Jesus's day, for Prostitutes will enter before they
religion is based on man's interpretation taking away the sovereignty of God appearing as if it is not
God is the creator and we are the creation
So God being the creator, are we to get God to respond to us, by a religion? Or are we being the creation to respond to God?
What Paul says in Rom 9 is the opposite of what Calvinism says. I agree with what Paul says in Rom 9, so Calvinists have the explaining to do.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
We know from Ro.8:29-30 that God's plan of salvation has always been the same. The spiritual Israel is the Church of Christ and we are grafted into the Jewish Church of God by the same plan as Abram and sara were . Jesus told the sam. woman, "salvation is of the Jews" We are not grafted into the physical Israel but into the spiritual, saved Jewish Church of God. The earth is of one RACE, HUMAN RACE; but of many nations from ONE BLOOD , Adam's blood, which has nothing to do with salvation, but, the saved are from every nation, tongue and tribe, Rev. 7:14. we are a sub-culture, but The Church of Christ is not divided in Heaven, sad to say, we are divided on earth. But God will weed out the tares at the resurrection unto Life, and get all Christian to agree. Every church has tares. Love to all Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
What Paul says in Rom 9 is the opposite of what Calvinism says. I agree with what Paul says in Rom 9, so Calvinists have the explaining to do.
Time will tell, what exactly you do believe, welcome aboard. Love Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
homwardbound thanks for your long post :I must get ready for church, will read it latter. Love Hofffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
homwardbound, I now see you pasted in a whole chapter from a book; Please DO NOT do this, We want your personal input. If you quote or give a web site for our own personal reading, fine, but a long quote is for the birds. The book you quoted is a very controversial evil philosophy which I personally hate. It is a Far Eastern Mysticism which has no roots in the Bible. It is yoga, Buddhism, etc. a lawless, wicked, sinful religion. Anything that put my mind in neutral and opens me up to demons is wicked. We get our truth only from the Bible. I do believe in "Christ in us; the hope of glory" But not a mindless mysticism. The Bible is mystical in a very restricted manner. A.W.Tozer was a true Biblical mystic, he was guided by the Bible. He taught obedience to the moral laws of God. J.I. Packer taught ,obedience to the moral laws of God. Love, Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
I need to give a quick review of Rom. 5,7 and 8. We are dead to sin, and alive to righteous. We are saved, as were all the elect of God, by GOD'S grace and mercy, We have a new husband, Jesus who forgives us when we sin. The WORD of GOD is our ONLY standard of RIGHTEOUSNESS.! Love to all Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
The longer review is: Rom. ch.6 is clear: We died to sin, we should walk,live, in newness of life. We once lived for sin ,now we live for righteous, which will result in eternal life. We are to use our fleshly body parts to live lawfully, righteously. Ch. 7 tells us: Sin is much more than the Big Ten, sin is very complex,it is a heart issue also. ch.8 tells us: The Holy Spirit has taken care of the heart issue, by freeing us from the law of sin and death, not from the holy, just and righteous law of God. Now if we live to the Spirit and kill the sins of our old heart, we will gain eternal life. This is no problem, God is for us, we are more than conquers in Christ. So, we can live free from sin, but if we do sin, we are forgiven, we have the Spirit of adoption , not a spirit of fear. RELAX, and enjoy your new life in the SON. Love to all. Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
Romans chs. 1-8 are key to understanding all of the rest of the New T. books. SO,if need be, I will answer more questions on them. Love to all, Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
I thank homwardbound for his excellent post #1059, this is all true. The New Cov. needs a new Priest and new laws. And it was put into effect after Jesus died. Now ,all Christians are priests to offer up spiritual worship,Offerings, to God thru Jesus our ONLY priest, who ONCE for all, died and rose again. Rom. 14:8-9 To be "Lord" and Rom. 10: 9 our "Lord". Love, HGoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
To seabass, Rom.9:24-26 is the answer to your question of post 1062. God has His"elect" from the Gentiles as from the Jews. Salvation is"of the Jews" Jh.4:22, but ,I think, most of the "elect" to sal. will be Gentiles, grafted into the Jewish root. We all make up the ONE "fold" "flock" of Jesus, Jh. 10:16. SO, be kind and thankful to a Jew today. Love Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
V. God is righteous, just and loving in each dispensation/age of His sovereign, electing and saving grace. 9:1-11:36 A. God chose Israel as His chosen nation. Israel's past was glorious but salvation was only for the chosen remnant.
The Old Cov. age. 9:1-29
B. God sets Israel aside for judgment and God now focuses on the Whole world. Israel is presently a disobedient and obstinate people. The New Cov. age. 9:30-10:21
C. Israel will have a glorious messianic age with their Messiah Jesus. the Millennial age, 1,000 yrs. 11:1-36
UPDATED OUTLINE:
V. God is Righteous and Just and Loving, in each dispensation of Sovereign electing and saving Grace. 9:1-11:36
A. God chose Israel as His chosen nation. Israel's past was glorious but salvation was only for the chosen remnant. 9:1-33. 1. Paul's sorrow for His people Israel. 9:1-5
2. God's sovereignty in salvation 9:6-33

This is where we are at in our study, Rom. 9. Please keep reading, meditating on these three chapters.
 
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Hoffco

Guest
I will keep encouraging you to keep studies these chs. 8,9,10,& 11, Love to all, Hoffco
 
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Hoffco

Guest
Please post me and let us know what you are learning of God's so great salvation. What does "foreknowledge" mean? 8:29,"whom He foreknew" 11:2 "His people whom He foreknew""God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew" comp. to Eph1:4-5"...in love He predestined us to adoption as sons" What was the bases upon which
God chose us? comp. to Jesus words "depart from Me you workers of iniquity, I never Knew you." Are we looking at knowledge of someone or Love for someone? "Jacob I have loved", Love to all. Hoffco
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
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A very short study on the Epistle to the Romans can be found Here

Yahweh Shalom...
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,140
364
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I thank homwardbound for his excellent post #1059, this is all true. The New Cov. needs a new Priest and new laws. And it was put into effect after Jesus died. Now ,all Christians are priests to offer up spiritual worship,Offerings, to God thru Jesus our ONLY priest, who ONCE for all, died and rose again. Rom. 14:8-9 To be "Lord" and Rom. 10: 9 our "Lord". Love, HGoffco
Psalm 145:21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the Lord: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.