Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

Grandpa · Apr 28, 2014

Matthew 5:43-48
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[SUP]45 [/SUP]That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The Lord Jesus expounds on what the Law is really saying to us. The Lord Jesus is showing us that the bar that the law has set is a lot higher than anyone thought.

So if you are going to work at the law then be perfect like your Father in Heaven is Perfect. He gave the law. If you will not hear Him but will rather do what He requires (your instructions for living...) then this is the bar, Be Perfect as God is Perfect.

If you don't make the bar then condemnation and death.

But the Lord Jesus has given us another Way. One that is different from our working at the law as Judaism does.

Galatians 3:22-25

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3 says that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ is given to those who believe. But before that faith comes you are under the law. I suppose you are under the law until you realize that you can't be perfect like God is perfect by your works.

You are condemned and sentenced to die by the law. You fall short of what is required.

So how do you do it? If our works won't cause us to be Perfect like God is Perfect, how can we attain to that high standard?

Galatians 3:2-3

[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

By the Spirit. We are perfected by the Holy Spirit that Christ gives to us at Salvation and whom He grows as we walk with Him.

How do we recieve this Holy Spirit?

Matthew 11:28-30

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden(those who cannot attain to the perfection required by the law), and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

By walking in the Light as He is in the Light. By being honest with yourself that you need help and can't be perfect by yourself. By coming to the Lord Jesus and asking Him, in faith, honesty and trust.

What happens when you try for a "balance" of law and grace, mixing the two together?

James 1:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Grandpa · Apr 28, 2014

You have to know all of this, in post 1821, before you can understand the blessing by which we have been blessed by the Lord Jesus Christ and which hebrew roots points to but obviously is not the solution itself.

What a miracle Salvation is!!! To get prideful, arrogant, stubborn, human beings to ask for help from our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Hizikyah · Apr 28, 2014

Your something else, you one we have already gone over this, why be quiet for a few hours then wait until I log off and say this, why not reply to the Scripture instead of ignoring them?

JGIG said:

Hizikyah said:

JGIG said:

SO why not comment on the above verses the factually say different, even according to your own definition of nomos?

JGIG said:

SO I posted this:

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:3-6, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk exactly as He walked."

And you reply with, "AGAIN, you are universally defining God's law/commandments as the laws given to Israel at Sinai. There were commandments before Sinai and there were commandments after Sinai."

And you go on to the next chapter to prove the only Law is believe, (which is against the words of the Messiah I might add)

By why dont we look at the NEXT verse, yes I believe the nest chapter and the entire book should be consulted, but why not look at the NEXT verse?

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:7, "Brothers, I write no new Laws to you, but the old Laws which you had from the beginning: The old Laws are the Law which you had from the beginning."

Lets read that together...

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:3-7, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk exactly as He walked. Brothers, I write no new Laws to you, but the old Laws which you had from the beginning: The old Laws are the Law which you had from the beginning.

And to me you pretty much showed yourself when you took matters into you own hands and claimed to know something it is impossible for you to know... Who gave you the authority to judge this matter? And what evidene do you present? Or is this a false witness and a usurping of the power of judgement?

JGIG said:

Hizikyah · Apr 28, 2014

Grandpa said:

One Judaism is a false man made religion based upon the Talmud and not Scripture. The principles of this are made clean in Matt, Mark, Luke, and John, yet it alludes most.

Mark 7:7-9, "But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!"

Many here do the same as the pharisees.

And how does Yahshua explaining the Law in its detail and Spiritual intent mean we are no longer to follow it?

These next to verses were not written just because...

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"

Grandpa said:

Galatians 3:22-25

Click to expand...

Grandpa said:

Certainly the Law shows us we need mercy and we need a Savior. There difference between you and me is I dont take this passage in Galatians and filter the entire Book through it, not I study all Scripture. And Shaul made it abundantly clear here:

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

Grandpa said:

Galatians 3:2-3

Click to expand...

Grandpa said:

Any that receive the Spirit of Yahweh do so through mercy, all have fallen short, how does this "prove" your point?

Yahchanan 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The Words (Instructions) that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

The qestion I have is what direction is the spirit one has leading them?

Ezekiyl 36:26-27, "A new heart; mind, will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep My Laws."

Grandpa said:

Matthew 11:28-30

Click to expand...

Grandpa said:

While this is a true statement, (those who cannot attain to the perfection required by the law) but you added it in to an irrelevant place, just randomly inserting ideas out of context is falsehood. Messiah taught Yahweh's Law and said to keep it, find a verses where He says not to and I will change my views, I am a disciple of Messiah.

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Grandpa said:

"balance" of law and grace

Have the mega preachers hoodwinked you that much?

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

double minded huh?

"by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

Grandpa · Apr 28, 2014

Obviously, for legalists and Judaizers, hebrew roots is their seeming justification for their work at the law.

However, the fact remains that none of them will become perfect by their work at the law.

Nor will they become perfect by attempting to add their works at the law to the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is foolishness.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Hizikyah · Apr 28, 2014

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, (in conformity) with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

Grandpa said:

Love.... how do we love? Does the Spirit teach a different love that the Scripture? Or was all Scripture guided by the Spirit?

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might(Deut 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself(Lev 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are briefly summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

Next we have a direct connection to rejection of the Law of Yahweh and people not having love.

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

1 Corinthians 2:9, "But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which Yahweh has prepared for those who love Him."

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Deuteronomy 10:12-13, "And now, O Israyl, what does Yahweh your Father require of you, but to reverence Yahweh your Father by walking in all His ways, by loving Him, by serving Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul. By keeping the Laws of Yahweh, with His statutes, which I command you this day, so that you may be blessed?"

LOVE...what we call love or what Yahweh calls love?

LOVE...what the world calls love or what Yahweh calls love

LOVE...

danschance · Apr 28, 2014

Hizikyah said:

If you continue to read on you read:

Somehow you forgot to mention the part highlighted in red. John is simply reminding the reader that to love your neighbor is an old command and yet a new one also. This means he is ratifying an old concept into the new commands. Which is: love your neighbor. You ignored the context and only focused in on what you hoped would prove your point, but it actually goes against it! Notice the header to these passages placed there by the publisher: "The New Commandment".

This is a common tactic by those in the HRM. They search the NT not for spiritual nourishment but to any excuse to ratify their cult doctrines. They search for the word law and assume it always means the Mosaic law. It is very poor exegesis that lands them into a theological ditch.

RedTent · Apr 28, 2014

danschance said:

What exactly are the "cult doctrines" you say people who want to acknowledge the roots of Christ have? And when you are the ones that search for the word law, not them, why would you say they do it, and then as if it would be an error to do this? Being you are the ones who search for law, not them, and if that is a ditch, then I should think you would be saying that you are in a ditch. Most of them don't even acknowledge that the word translated as law is always correct, they feel that it often should be translated instructions.

danschance · Apr 28, 2014

[h=2]The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns[/h]

Details Written by Stephen Katz

As Jewish believers, we often encourage Gentile Christians to learn about the Jewish roots of their faith. Many benefit from the insights they gain from these connections. However, a growing segment of believers are demonstrating an excessive interest in their Jewish roots, which can be harmful to their spiritual health.
The Hebraic Roots or Jewish Roots movement refers to various organizations with a common emphasis on recovering the original" Jewishness of Christianity. This recovery comes through studying the Bible in its Jewish context, observing the Torah, keeping the Sabbath and festivals, avoiding the "paganism" of Christianity, affirming the existence of original Hebrew language gospels and, in some cases, denigrating the Greek text of the New Testament. Writers such as Roy Blizzard, David Bivin, Brad Young and Robert Lindsay have given much impetus to this movement.
A proliferation of teachers, ministries and institutions associated with the Jewish/Hebraic roots movement has a growing presence on the Internet. Consequently, many believers are intrigued. In trying to understand the movement, we find a certain fuzziness that makes it difficult to characterize it by any one set of doctrines. Some organizations associated with the movement offer statements of faith that are evangelical in their understanding of salvation. Others are way off the mark.
Pastor Ken Garrison, Director of the Tsemach Institute for Biblical Studies, wrote a book titled Hebraic Roots, which states that the Church, in straying from its Hebraic heritage, has fallen into error. Further, he claims that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity must be rejected as unscriptural. Roy Blizzard, more widely known than Garrison, comes close to rejecting the inerrancy of Scripture and seems to hold to an aberrant, if not heretical, view of the Trinity, according to the Christian Research Institute.[SUP]1[/SUP]
If you enter messianic chatrooms you may well encounter people who describe the Trinity as a Gentile invention of the Nicene Council. This is a gross misunderstanding—if not gross ignorance—of church history. Since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each described as God in Scripture, it also undermines God's Word to dismiss the doctrine of the Trinity as a man-made invention. Both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures provide the foundation for understanding God's triune nature. The Jewish writers of the New Testament expressed truth about the deity of Messiah based upon their grasp of the Jewish Bible and their experience with Y'shua.
Dwight Pryor, a leading voice for evangelicals in the Jewish Roots movement, warns that some believers are forsaking Jesus and Christianity because of their growing fondness for Judaism and its teachings. They are crossing a line from appreciation to adulation of their Jewish roots. It almost seems as though these lapsing Christians believe that a special insight into their roots somehow elevates their status—as though there is an inherent superiority in being Jewish.
These people have forgotten that God loves every nation, and that all cultures have unique contributions to make to the Body of Messiah. Gentiles who say, "We are no longer Gentiles, regardless of our background" are confused and on the road to spiritual trouble. Adherents of the so-called "Two House Theory" constitute one group that has fallen into this kind of error.
Hebraic Roots teachers call upon believers to study Hebrew and learn about Jewish culture, which most of us can appreciate. More often than not, however, they call Gentiles to a Torah-observant and/or festival observant lifestyle as a means of drawing closer to Jesus and being conformed to His image. The implication is, if you really want to please God, if you really want to be holy, here are the rules. Even though most do not believe these observances are necessary for one's salvation, there is often an implication that this is the higher way. Scripture warns against such things.
When believers forsake apostolic teaching, when they downgrade the Greek New Testament text, when they elevate the roots of their faith above the faith itself, they are in danger.
Many don't realize that it is impossible to return to the precise practices of the early church, when Jewish believers served as the chief leaders. Much of the Jewish Roots movement is actually based upon later Jewish/rabbinic tradition. More importantly, the question of whether Gentiles need to adopt a Jewish lifestyle and return to Jewish roots was settled by the Jerusalem Council described in Acts 15. The remarkable news of the gospel is that, in Y'shua, Jews and Gentiles have direct access to God. Rural Christians in China won't be drawn closer to God through studying Hebrew and waving Israeli flags in worship. They need what we all need: more time in prayer and meditation on the Word of God.
As Jewish believers, we certainly need to understand our roots. It would be a shame to forsake our birthright. Not only that, but counter-missionaries often try to undermine our beliefs by assigning them false origins, so we need to know the real origins of our faith. I'd be rich if I had a dollar for every time I've been told that Christianity was invented by Gentiles who didn't know the Jewish Bible. Of course, that accusation belies the accuser's own ignorance of the Jewish roots of our faith.
It's also important for Gentiles to understand the Jewish roots of their faith so they can better relate (and hopefully witness) to their Jewish friends, as well as oppose anti-Semitism when they see it.
Believers who wish to learn more about the Jewish roots of Christianity do well. Learning about the Jewish roots of Christianity can transform a black and white understanding of Scripture into "living color." A deeper understanding of first century Judaism can also help people better understand Y'shua and His contemporaries. There are many good books and tapes available on the subject. But Jewish and Gentile believers need to focus on applying the words and actions of Y'shua to their cultural context today. Maybe we can help serve as a reality check for those brothers and sisters who begin to reject sound teaching and slip into an unhealthy glorification of Jewish roots.
Should opportunities present themselves, let's reflect God's desire for Jews and Gentiles to be reconciled through faith in Messiah. Let's carefully remind our brothers and sisters that God is glorified when we accept one another with our different backgrounds and distinct heritages. We need to communicate to our Gentile brothers and sisters that there is no superiority in being born Jewish or Gentile, and that in Y'shua all of us can be thankful for the various identities God gave us.
Like the inexperienced gardener who may confuse the flowers with the weeds, so the enthusiastic, but callow, believer may be unable to distinguish between those Jewish Roots teachings which enrich or impoverish our faith. That's the danger. There are thorns in the garden. We should pay attention to Paul's inspired advice to Timothy: "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers" (1 Timothy 4:16).

From;The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns - Jews for Jesus

danschance · Apr 28, 2014

The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns

As Jewish believers, we often encourage Gentile Christians to learn about the Jewish roots of their faith. Many benefit from the insights they gain from these connections. However, a growing segment of believers are demonstrating an excessive interest in their Jewish roots, which can be harmful to their spiritual health.

The Hebraic Roots or Jewish Roots movement refers to various organizations with a common emphasis on recovering the original" Jewishness of Christianity. This recovery comes through studying the Bible in its Jewish context, observing the Torah, keeping the Sabbath and festivals, avoiding the "paganism" of Christianity, affirming the existence of original Hebrew language gospels and, in some cases, denigrating the Greek text of the New Testament. Writers such as Roy Blizzard, David Bivin, Brad Young and Robert Lindsay have given much impetus to this movement.

A proliferation of teachers, ministries and institutions associated with the Jewish/Hebraic roots movement has a growing presence on the Internet. Consequently, many believers are intrigued. In trying to understand the movement, we find a certain fuzziness that makes it difficult to characterize it by any one set of doctrines. Some organizations associated with the movement offer statements of faith that are evangelical in their understanding of salvation. Others are way off the mark.

Pastor Ken Garrison, Director of the Tsemach Institute for Biblical Studies, wrote a book titled Hebraic Roots, which states that the Church, in straying from its Hebraic heritage, has fallen into error. Further, he claims that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity must be rejected as unscriptural. Roy Blizzard, more widely known than Garrison, comes close to rejecting the inerrancy of Scripture and seems to hold to an aberrant, if not heretical, view of the Trinity, according to the Christian Research Institute.[SUP]1[/SUP]
If you enter messianic chatrooms you may well encounter people who describe the Trinity as a Gentile invention of the Nicene Council. This is a gross misunderstanding—if not gross ignorance—of church history. Since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each described as God in Scripture, it also undermines God's Word to dismiss the doctrine of the Trinity as a man-made invention. Both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures provide the foundation for understanding God's triune nature. The Jewish writers of the New Testament expressed truth about the deity of Messiah based upon their grasp of the Jewish Bible and their experience with Y'shua.

Dwight Pryor, a leading voice for evangelicals in the Jewish Roots movement, warns that some believers are forsaking Jesus and Christianity because of their growing fondness for Judaism and its teachings. They are crossing a line from appreciation to adulation of their Jewish roots. It almost seems as though these lapsing Christians believe that a special insight into their roots somehow elevates their status—as though there is an inherent superiority in being Jewish.

These people have forgotten that God loves every nation, and that all cultures have unique contributions to make to the Body of Messiah. Gentiles who say, "We are no longer Gentiles, regardless of our background" are confused and on the road to spiritual trouble. Adherents of the so-called "Two House Theory" constitute one group that has fallen into this kind of error.

Hebraic Roots teachers call upon believers to study Hebrew and learn about Jewish culture, which most of us can appreciate. More often than not, however, they call Gentiles to a Torah-observant and/or festival observant lifestyle as a means of drawing closer to Jesus and being conformed to His image. The implication is, if you really want to please God, if you really want to be holy, here are the rules. Even though most do not believe these observances are necessary for one's salvation, there is often an implication that this is the higher way. Scripture warns against such things.

When believers forsake apostolic teaching, when they downgrade the Greek New Testament text, when they elevate the roots of their faith above the faith itself, they are in danger.

Like the inexperienced gardener who may confuse the flowers with the weeds, so the enthusiastic, but callow, believer may be unable to distinguish between those Jewish Roots teachings which enrich or impoverish our faith. That's the danger. There are thorns in the garden. We should pay attention to Paul's inspired advice to Timothy: "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers" (1 Timothy 4:16).

If you want to read more on this article from Jews for Jesus, you can find it in it's entirety here:
The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns - Jews for Jesus

RedTent · Apr 28, 2014

Grandpa said:

Matthew 5:43-48
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
[SUP]45 [/SUP]That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
[SUP]47 [/SUP]And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The Lord Jesus expounds on what the Law is really saying to us. The Lord Jesus is showing us that the bar that the law has set is a lot higher than anyone thought.

So if you are going to work at the law then be perfect like your Father in Heaven is Perfect. He gave the law. If you will not hear Him but will rather do what He requires (your instructions for living...) then this is the bar, Be Perfect as God is Perfect.

If you don't make the bar then condemnation and death.

But the Lord Jesus has given us another Way. One that is different from our working at the law as Judaism does.

Galatians 3:22-25

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3 says that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ is given to those who believe. But before that faith comes you are under the law. I suppose you are under the law until you realize that you can't be perfect like God is perfect by your works.

You are condemned and sentenced to die by the law. You fall short of what is required.

So how do you do it? If our works won't cause us to be Perfect like God is Perfect, how can we attain to that high standard?

Galatians 3:2-3

[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

By the Spirit. We are perfected by the Holy Spirit that Christ gives to us at Salvation and whom He grows as we walk with Him.

How do we recieve this Holy Spirit?

Matthew 11:28-30

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden(those who cannot attain to the perfection required by the law), and I will give you rest.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

By walking in the Light as He is in the Light. By being honest with yourself that you need help and can't be perfect by yourself. By coming to the Lord Jesus and asking Him, in faith, honesty and trust.

What happens when you try for a "balance" of law and grace, mixing the two together?

James 1:6-8
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Why, Grandpa, when this is supposed to be about the HRM does everyone change the subject and talk about the law?

RedTent · Apr 28, 2014

danschance said:

Now, we are coming to the real question about the HRM. If people do not have a thorough understanding of Hebrews, and always understand the roots of their faith as roots, not as the final scripture given by the Lord, then this can happen.

You can't know all of God without knowing balance. You can't truly know God without understanding the roots of the Old Testament, New Testament people always lack. In even more of the same way, it is absolutely necessary to know all that Christ's life on this earth and death for us did for us. Without balance, we are lacking.

danschance · Apr 28, 2014

RedTent said:

Yet it is often out of balance as parishioners of the HRM glorify the OT and neglect the NT. They confuse the roots with the fruit.

RedTent · Apr 28, 2014

danschance said:

that is where you have been misinformed. True professors of ancient Hebrew do not even read the OT without relating it to the new.

I have seen people do the opposite, they say the new discredits much of the old. I have heard people who have no idea that the old is scripture breathed by God the same way the NT was. All people who know Christ as their Savior, as the HRM people do, see Christ as the center of their faith. They see the risen Christ through the roots of Christ as well as in the four gospels.

danschance · Apr 28, 2014

RedTent said:

You were the one who accused me of spending too much time in the NT, as if that is a bad thing. This statement "True professors of ancient Hebrew do not even read the OT without relating it to the new. " is true only if you know all "true professors" of the HRM. In fact the HRM is extremely varied. So I doubt you are telling the truth. Instead I think you believe this may be true but it is not.

JGIG · Apr 28, 2014

Hizikyah said:

Actually, the term is 'antinomian'.

And we're not antinomian, we're for the proper use of the Law (1 Tim. 1:8-11).

Funny how you always quote Romans 3:31 and leave out the verses that make it clear that Paul was speaking of establishing the proper use of the Law after the Cross:

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Note: The Law was given to the unrighteous not the righteous; those who are in Christ are righteous in Him (Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5, and Romans 3, as well, as you will see below).

Note also: The Law was given so that every mouth would be stopped (including yours). No one can keep the Law; through the Law comes that knowledge - the knowledge that those who are unbelievers are utterly sinful and NEED CHRIST.

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law,

Note: Righteousness does not come through the Law. Period. To say you're keeping it is 1) a lie, and 2) does not make you righteous anyway, even if you could keep it. The righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the Law.

although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24

and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

Boasting is excluded, Hizikya, which is what we see you doing on this thread - posting about how you keep God's Law, which you don't - not because I'm assuming anything about your life, but because Scripture tells us so! No one does!

28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

How do we uphold the Law? For the purposes for which it was given! Through the Law is the knowledge of sin. Justification does not come through the Law. God's righteousness - apart from the Law - was made known through faith in Christ Jesus.

So we see that no one is justified by the Law (which you agree with - salvation does not come through the Law, though you kind of deny that when you pull the 'Yeshua is the Living Torah' bit), and the righteousness of God does not come through the Law.

So what is the Law's purpose?

To point out sin.

If you choose to live according to the Law, it will constantly remind you of your sin, but does nothing to help you to say no to sin. Grace teaches you to say no to ungodliness and to live uprightly (Titus 2). It doesn't put focus on sin, but frees you from it! A much better way to live!

What is the Law's purpose?

It was given to the unrighteous, not to the righteous.

I'll ask you again: According to the Scriptures, if you are in Christ, are you righteous or unrighteous? If you are righteous in Christ, then why do you insist that the Law is for you?

What is the Law's purpose?

To stir up sin. See Romans 5 and 7. The Law's job is to make it completely clear to mankind their need for a Savior.

So as Paul, I establish the Law. For the purposes for which it was given, which Paul has made abundantly clear.

You continue to pull one verse completely out of context.

Readers note the Root Word Fallacy here. Hizikya has taken the actual word that appears in a text, anomia G458, which refers to general law not specific to Mosaic Law and replaced it with anomos G459, which is specific to Mosaic Law.

Again, this is to support his assertion that every time 'law' or 'commandment' is used in Scripture, it is defined as the Laws given to Israel at Sinai. That is simply not reality. When the Scriptures refer to 'iniquity', again, Hizikya attempts to make that transgression against specific Law - those laws given to Israel at Sinai. Again, not the case.

All sin (transgressions) were dealt with at the Cross. Since the Cross, God in no longer holding man's transgressions against him - the only sin held against man is the sin of unbelief:

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. (from 2 Cor. 5)

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (from Jn. 3)

So what is the anomia (violation of law)?

What is the iniquity spoken of there?

The sin of unbelief.

That is the only sin that God still holds against anyone.

If you are in Christ, no sins are held against you!

Yep. Mankind is sinful.

Neither justification nor righteousness come through the Law, however, according to the Scriptures. Justification AND Righteousness come through faith in Christ.

If you want to 'keep' the Law, knock yourself out. But keep it all - every single jot and tittle that applies to you. Let the Law do it's job. Stop pretending that you're actually keeping it. The Scriptures tell us all that you don't. Again, nothing personal - that is truth for all of us, and why we need Jesus \o/.

-JGIG

JGIG · Apr 28, 2014

RedTent said:

Your question is flawed. It's like asking a husband who has never beaten his wife, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" The question is a total set-up, to which there is no answer that won't make the husband look bad.

If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law (from Gal. 5).

Obedience to law is not the issue for the believer; obedience to the Spirit is. The Spirit will not lead us to do that which is not pleasing to God. And God has provided for a righteousness apart from the Law in Christ. Read Romans 3.

Your question is flawed.

Yes:

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (from 1 Jn. 2)

-JGIG

JGIG · Apr 28, 2014

JGIG said:

RedTent said:

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (from 2 Tim. 3)

-JGIG

JGIG · Apr 28, 2014

Hizikyah said:

See post #1836 where these very issues are addressed =o).

Hizikyah said:

Again, read post ......"]#1836. It's not me who makes that assertion, but the Scriptures.

-JGIG

JGIG · Apr 28, 2014

Hizikyah said:

Nothing personal, Hizikyah, but I don't carve my life's schedule around the little green light next to your username. I post when I can, as I feel led. That just shows how self-centered you are, thinking such a silly thing.

Which is all you ever do. If that is what you believe, maybe Judaism is a better fit for you. You certainly are not preaching the Gospel.

danschance answered this nicely in post #1827. Again, you define commandments/law as only the laws given to Israel at Sinai, and again, you take Scripture out of context to make your point.

And that's what really has you upset. You say you're obedient to God by keeping His Law and I pointed out that you don't.

Well, you don't! Not because of any special insight I have into your life or behavior, but because Scripture says that NO ONE keeps God's Law. See Romans 3. I detail the issue in post #1836. It's not like you're not in good company, Hizikayah; no one has ever been able to keep the Law. That's why we need Christ \o/!

-JGIG

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