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E
really?
John thought when he returned, We will be like him, for we will see him as he is. John fell to the ground when he saw him in his vision, because he could not take it (I do not think he even saw him in all his glory. Scripture says if we saw God as he is, we would die) but here John says we will see him as he is. Thus the men who you claim thought he would return in their lifetime believed we would be resurrected when he comes.
I have studied for 30 years also. I have studied the books you have and even more. History and prophesy are my two favorite subjects. So I have more study in this than any other topic.
As for pentecost. I do not agree with everything he said, But he makes alot of great points. the biggest is that you spiritualize prophesy, while pre-milenialists take prophesy literally. And he is correct. this is what separates us.
John thought when he returned, We will be like him, for we will see him as he is. John fell to the ground when he saw him in his vision, because he could not take it (I do not think he even saw him in all his glory. Scripture says if we saw God as he is, we would die) but here John says we will see him as he is. Thus the men who you claim thought he would return in their lifetime believed we would be resurrected when he comes.
I have studied for 30 years also. I have studied the books you have and even more. History and prophesy are my two favorite subjects. So I have more study in this than any other topic.
As for pentecost. I do not agree with everything he said, But he makes alot of great points. the biggest is that you spiritualize prophesy, while pre-milenialists take prophesy literally. And he is correct. this is what separates us.
E
lol. A pre-mellinialists believes in a future 1000 year literal reign of Christ on earth.
there is also ammilenialism, Then there are post mellinialists, Who believes christ returns after the millennium.
You also have pre-trib, mid trib and post trib.
It can confusing trying to understand and know all the beliefs out there.
Preterism is a term I never heard until last year in this chatroom..
L
All those tribs, dibs, and bibs are all based on the wrong identity of the whor.e in the book of revelation - once it is established that the whor.e is 1st century Israel the rest falls into place as for timing and interpretation of the symbols.
The whor.e of Babylon is NOT the Roman Catholic church, is not the EU, is not the World Wide Council of churches and is not some rebuilt "Babylon in Iraq.
The book of revelation and various new testament writings all point to 1st century apostate Israel as the whor.e of Babylon.
Rev 18:4 KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
"Come out of her, my people" I believe relates to those that were still trying to keep the old Mosaic Law and not abiding by the doctrine of Christ and the apostles.
Apostate Israel - the persecutor of the saints, the killer of prophets and the Lord Jesus"
(Rev 18:5 KJV) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Jerusalem is the only place where "our Lord was crucified" - therefore the prophecy is dealing with only that city and apostate Israel that killed him and the prophets.
(1 Th 2:15 KJV) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
(1 Th 2:16 KJV) Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
(Rev 18:5 KJV) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(Mat 23:31 KJV) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
(Mat 23:32 KJV) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
All this points to a 1st century "wrath" on Babylon - aka 1st century apostate Israel/Jerusalem.
(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(Mat 23:38 KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
This all came to pass in 70AD.
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(Rev 17:5 KJV) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
(Rev 18:21 KJV)...........thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
(Rev 18:23 KJV)............and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee...
So who is this bridegroom and bride?
Rev 21:9 KJV).................I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife...
(Luke 5:35 KJV) But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
It is well known that after the death and resurrection of Jesus that the disciples bore witness to the Jesus in the temple in Israel (aka BABYLON) - James was known to have been a constant witness there.
(Acts 5:42 KJV) And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
This was the voice of of the bridegroom and of the bride that would no longer be found in the temple especially after it's destruction in 70AD if not quite some time before.
The whor.e of Babylon is NOT the Roman Catholic church, is not the EU, is not the World Wide Council of churches and is not some rebuilt "Babylon in Iraq.
The book of revelation and various new testament writings all point to 1st century apostate Israel as the whor.e of Babylon.
Rev 18:4 KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
"Come out of her, my people" I believe relates to those that were still trying to keep the old Mosaic Law and not abiding by the doctrine of Christ and the apostles.
Apostate Israel - the persecutor of the saints, the killer of prophets and the Lord Jesus"
(Rev 18:5 KJV) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Jerusalem is the only place where "our Lord was crucified" - therefore the prophecy is dealing with only that city and apostate Israel that killed him and the prophets.
(1 Th 2:15 KJV) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
(1 Th 2:16 KJV) Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
(Rev 18:5 KJV) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
(Mat 23:31 KJV) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
(Mat 23:32 KJV) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
All this points to a 1st century "wrath" on Babylon - aka 1st century apostate Israel/Jerusalem.
(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
(Mat 23:38 KJV) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
This all came to pass in 70AD.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Rev 17:5 KJV) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
(Rev 18:21 KJV)...........thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
(Rev 18:23 KJV)............and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee...
So who is this bridegroom and bride?
Rev 21:9 KJV).................I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife...
(Luke 5:35 KJV) But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
It is well known that after the death and resurrection of Jesus that the disciples bore witness to the Jesus in the temple in Israel (aka BABYLON) - James was known to have been a constant witness there.
(Acts 5:42 KJV) And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
This was the voice of of the bridegroom and of the bride that would no longer be found in the temple especially after it's destruction in 70AD if not quite some time before.
Lol I get that, but then I suppose we must ask what Spiritual means then
@EG Ahh I think I kinda get what you're saying. Lol I will have to look up the millenialisms sometime to figure out which one makes most sense.
Heh I had actually heard of Preterism years ago and found it intriguing at first, but upon examination of ancient secular history and Bible Prophecy, especially Revelation, I found it to align with neither.
L
I've got shelves stacked with books from Hal Lindsey, Grant Jeffery, et. al. and others - they are all futurists - and while I would not say they don't have their merits and truly believe in what they write the only view that actually does justice to the time imminent statements littered through the NT and the revelation is preterism - I did not come to this conclusion overnight as I spent most of my years with the other 'isms.
Lol never heard of those guys so they are as irrelevant as the Preterist Revisionists. Basically you saying that you read Preterist Revisionists and Futurist Revisionists is like me saying I read Brave New World and 1984 and then arguing Huxley was correct over Orwell when in fact all evidence is against both of them lol.
And I certainly did not come to my conclusion overnight either. Nor do I pretend to know every detail of how Revelation will happen, though I do know this is a future event. Though how far into the future? That we shall see, though Jesus cometh quickly.
70 AD Jerusalem isn't the only possible fulfillment of the Whore of Babylon by the way. For Jerusalem still stands and the house of Israel have regained the Promised Land in our time. Thus this prophecy is wide open to still be fulfilled, though I do believe some signs do come before the destruction of the Whore.
Plus you know the whole fact Jerusalem still stands today and the prophecy of the whore says she will be totally destroyed also cancels out the 70 AD Theory.
And I certainly did not come to my conclusion overnight either. Nor do I pretend to know every detail of how Revelation will happen, though I do know this is a future event. Though how far into the future? That we shall see, though Jesus cometh quickly.
70 AD Jerusalem isn't the only possible fulfillment of the Whore of Babylon by the way. For Jerusalem still stands and the house of Israel have regained the Promised Land in our time. Thus this prophecy is wide open to still be fulfilled, though I do believe some signs do come before the destruction of the Whore.
Plus you know the whole fact Jerusalem still stands today and the prophecy of the whore says she will be totally destroyed also cancels out the 70 AD Theory.
L
Poor comparison.
Name another that can be considered to be the killer of the OT saints - Jesus laid the guilt and the punishment right at the generation who heard him feet.
(Luke 11:51 KJV) From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
The above can only be applied to the first century AD
(Mark 13:2 KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Sure it "stands" - but to claim it will once again be a "religious" center is totally against the intent of scripture.
God does not dwell in temples made with hands - there is never going to be another Jerusalem "centered" temple in Israel - it's a total denial of what the church Christ built is.
The REAL Jerusalem is heavenly not earthy:
(Eph 2:20 KJV) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(Rev 21:14 KJV) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(1 Pet 2:5 KJV) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(Rev 21:19 KJV) And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
(Heb 12:22 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
How is it possible that the believers in the 1st century were able to come to mount zion and the heavenly Jerusalem if John's vision is in the future?
Name another that can be considered to be the killer of the OT saints - Jesus laid the guilt and the punishment right at the generation who heard him feet.
(Luke 11:51 KJV) From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
The above can only be applied to the first century AD
(Mark 13:2 KJV) And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Sure it "stands" - but to claim it will once again be a "religious" center is totally against the intent of scripture.
God does not dwell in temples made with hands - there is never going to be another Jerusalem "centered" temple in Israel - it's a total denial of what the church Christ built is.
The REAL Jerusalem is heavenly not earthy:
(Eph 2:20 KJV) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(Rev 21:14 KJV) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(1 Pet 2:5 KJV) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
(Rev 21:19 KJV) And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
(Heb 12:22 KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
How is it possible that the believers in the 1st century were able to come to mount zion and the heavenly Jerusalem if John's vision is in the future?