Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[homwardbound]

Justification is found in the saving faith which has works. Saving faith has works, and all true faith is saving faith. This is why Paul says we are justified by faith through grace, and James says faith without works is dead. They don't contradict if works are part of true faith that Paul is speaking of, because if works aren't part of faith, then there is a contradiction.

true saving Faith yes indeed produces works, and so what are these works that are produced, please tell me your thoughts on this
Whose works?

 

[homwardbound]

So then you agree, faith alone justifies and if that faith does not have fruit, then it wasn't really faith?

The Faith might be true, and no works at first might not be shown, yet does anyone think here that God will leave us alone and not show us for us to come to this truth in God through Son

Philippians 1:6
being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a goodwork in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Anyone, anyone confident in this above?

 

[homwardbound]

Yes and no., because works can exist outside of faith, only GOOD works are found in faith. Therefore, works are necessary, good works. At this point, we are differing only on our side of the coin. One argues from the positive, if you have faith, you are going to live forever. Where I am arguing from the negative, if you do only that which is for you alone, you will burn in the Lake of Fire. In the end, the split between Catholic and Protestant was a split over how to describe the Way of the Lord. While many other differences exist now, this was the dumb reason for the great split. If only us Catholics could understand this, and only the Protestants understand this, then we would be one great step closer to a unified Church.

There is only one true tabernacle is there not?
[h=3]Hebrews 8[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; [SUP]2 [/SUP]a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

 

[homwardbound]

Luther is quoted in history as saying, "I can break my vow to my wife a thousand times and enter the kingdom of Heaven." That is a quote from a sermon of his after the Augsburg Confession. That is sheer heresy, if not apostasy.
So, I reached out in seeking open dialogue and you celebrate the divide. That is equivalent of you reaching out to me, and me heralding Alexander VI and Torquemada.

You might not see the intent and purposes in hid saying what he said:
Is it possible that what he was and is saying, that Nothing:
[h=3]Romans 8:31-39[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? [SUP]32 [/SUP]He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? [SUP]33 [/SUP]Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. [SUP]34 [/SUP]Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? [SUP]36 [/SUP]As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. [SUP]37 [/SUP]Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. [SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[homwardbound]

Not to further the divide, but I can appreciate Luther's quote. What he's simply saying is that the awesome grace of God covers all sins, past, present and future. Otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Spokenpassage, glad we can have some agreement on my previous post. I would submit that while God is sovereign even over my faith, it is sometimes an absurd statement to speak of God giving me faith, at least from a human perspective. Even in Eph. 2:8-9 the Greek grammar use of gender shows that it is not faith that God gives us, it is the salvation process. Specifically gratia and pistis are feminine and masculine words, yet the "this not of yourselves" in Greek, the "this" is neuter. It cannot refer to either grace or faith in the verse. It can only refer to the whole process of "salvation by grace through faith."

Let me extend the Catholic olive leaf. It seems clear that Catholics have a penciled line between the idea of faith and works whereas Protestants for the most part have a black marker. How much can we agree?

Here are three statements:

Faith that saves will always have good works, thus faith and good works save.
Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone.
Faith alone saves, faith should produce good works.

In my opinion, the first line is Catholic thought, the second line is Reformed thought, the third line is Biblical thought.

Or on that third, line: Faith alone will one day produce fruit of God alone through that one that came to believe, God does not leave us alone, even when we go through the valleys of death and walk away from God, God does not leave nor forsake us, ever, always wooing us through the spirit of truth that is sent to us by him the very first day one believed

Ephesians 1:13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[homwardbound]

Re: Spokenpassage

You say that faith produces works. Everyone here agrees.

Faith is the main component of how we're saved. It is very dangerous for a Christian to not have sufficient trust in the Lord.

Without faith, what is the point of fostering a relationship with the Lord?

If faith produces good fruits via good works, then how that these good fruits, which has been essentially produced by faith, not be beneficial to our salvation in some way?








The pope is not the head of the church in the fullest sense. We Catholics look at him as a representative of Christ. The Kingdom of Heaven resides on this planet via the church.

Matthew 16:18-19 Peter, you are the rock, and on this rock I will build my church. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the jaws of death will not prevail against it. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


At first glance, this bible passage may seem disconnected from the Catholic church, but a dig into history would reveal that Catholicism has indeed been the root of Christianity. The early church fathers did believe in things such as immaculate conception.




Matthew 13:25 A divided Kingdom will fall. A town or household split into factions cannot last for long.

Don't attack and mock us, all right? Atheists and anti-Catholics attack Pope Francis daily via his Twitter wall. We don't need to hear these attacks from anyone, especially from our fellow Christians.




It's already bad enough that we tell Atheists and buddhists that they're going to Hell.

Telling fellow Christians (especially Children) that they're going to Hell is even worse.

Matthew 25:40 Whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me.

Without believing God, in the receiving God, one can't please God:, and if they do good works are nothing more:
[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:1-3[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

One you think need to receive; to be able to do and it not be you your old self you think as in:

[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:4-13[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [SUP]5 [/SUP]doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [SUP]6 [/SUP]rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [SUP]7 [/SUP]beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Can any flesh perform the above besides Christ who did do this?, So what do we need to do this?
Could it be the very same Spirit of Father that led Christ? that Christ sent after his ascension?
Is this not what we all need, to be led, so we can rest in trust and do the true work of Love from Father through Son?

 

[homwardbound]

How and why was Abraham saved and justified?

He believed God, trusted God, and thus did as God said, not by force, by trust as many trust others and not God and get hurt, and grow suspicious and get angry, yet not from God. God does get angry and is righteous to smite anyone anywhere anytime
Read it all over in the First Testament, see the righteous anger of God
then come to the second Testament and see the fulfillment of god's anger, being appeased, settled through Son, and say thank you in appreciation, see this love and rejoice, do not please let self works or think they are God's works and lose this first love as we are warned of in Revelations. do you all remember your first love, or have you seen or felt this yet. If not seek it. It is overwhelming, and man has stolen it through a must do works program masqueraded as from God when it is another deception from the Devil. I stand in the blood smothered and covered, thanking Christ for this, so that I, and all can learn directly from Father, being delivered to Father as Holy, thanks to Christ.
Colossians 1:22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Do you believe this, then you will receive this, thus you will see this

 

[homwardbound]

By faith and faith in what?

yes Faith has to always have an object kerry, always

So i can see Faith as maybe swallowing food causes me to live right? Yet I could swallow poison and die
So the object of one's Faith either brings life or death, just like swallowing
The only object of Faith i see is Christ:
1 John 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
thanks Kerry, keep om keeping on Brother

 

[homwardbound]

Abraham knew nothing of Christ on a cross at that point.
Before Christ was crucified others were executed by men on a cross which took no special feat.
Although resurrection by God did.

What did Christ mean by this scripture...and you will have the answer to the question you have just asked me
Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

So now that goes to show us all, that only one is good. So if anyone calls anyone good, they are calling that person God are they not only God is good
So I personally call Jesus good, even though Christ took no credit for himself and we have a must do works going on here, for what you all to be called good, and be God?
Wasn't Adam who took part in that tree, became as God, and all born after him in the similitude, are born as if they are God
And is this not why Christ came to give us life? Where is this new life at?
In the resurrected Christ or the dead one? Was the death needed first before new life could be imputed to the believer?
So the death yes was the clearing, cleaning of the deck, first for you and all that believe, why so father could not be angry at you if you do sin, and work with you on walking right by trusting Father in the new life he gives you
So easy to see, that flesh is blinded to it, and is why Moses had to wear a vale. The light is bright too bright for flesh nature to comprehend

 

[homwardbound]

Repenting is a work.

Yes but of what sort Brother?

 

[homwardbound]

Obedient faith.

Please clarify to me here if I am wrong your obedient Faith as I am seeing is from works true or false?
And if true whose works yours?

 

[homwardbound]

So no works - no love for the Lord.

Therefore salvation not possible without works.

I am so sorry you do not see the love of God first that brings us to love God
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us

 

[homwardbound]

Acts 2:38 - Repentance is a work commanded to lost sinners. The Holy Spirit, through Peter's gospel message, convicted those Jews of their sin, but repentance was up to those Jews. Some did , most did not. The imperative for the to repent implies their ability and responsibility to obey that command. Those many that did not repent is not the failure or responsibility of the Holy Spirit but upon themselves.


If what you say is true and the Holy Spirit gets credit for those that repent, then it is also true the Holy Spirit gets the credit for failure for those that do not repent. The accountability and responsibility is upon the sinner to repent, not the Holy Spirit.

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you do play a good twister game, as the serpent deceived Eve in twisting things to look as pleasant and take eat their of, wow God forbid
She did not trust God and ate; therefor Adam did the same, because they Did not beleive God wholly, as you by your posts do not either, wholly; and to me now I see a deceiver, whether you see this consciously or not; only father knows and so I pray for your blessing in love and Mercy from Father through Christ the Son
So that as that person was kicked out to be desroyed by the devil so that maybe, his soul will be saved
All in love to you friend, all in love and Mercy from Father to show you, not to play, with the almighty
thanks for prayerfully listening

 

[homwardbound]

But this does not change the fact that without "doing" one is not a friend of Christ, no right to tree of life and cannot enter into the city, is not of God, is not righteous, will not abide forever, cannot come to the light, will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

But I have and you do not see, unfortunately blinded by the light, praying for you friend:
[h=3]Colossians 1:1-23[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, [SUP]2 [/SUP]to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, [SUP]4 [/SUP]since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, [SUP]5 [/SUP]for the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; [SUP]6 [/SUP]which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: [SUP]7 [/SUP]as ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; [SUP]8 [/SUP]who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; [SUP]10 [/SUP]that ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; [SUP]11 [/SUP]strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; [SUP]12 [/SUP]giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: [SUP]13 [/SUP]who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: [SUP]14 [/SUP]in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: [SUP]15 [/SUP]who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [SUP]16 [/SUP]for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [SUP]17 [/SUP]and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [SUP]23 [/SUP]if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[homwardbound]

A biblical, saving faith is a work, you cannot separate the two

Saving Faith is to consciously beleive or not beleive, that is the only thing Christ never died for. And that is brought you by the Holy Spirit of truth of God to either beleive God or not and not add anything as you are doing quite sneakily
Blasphemy against the Spirit of Father is not forgiven, either inn this world or the world to come

This is a serious matter, to either truly believe or not, and I am making no judgment to you from me, why? because I truist Father through Son
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Father gives the increase, not I, not you or anyone else, I am nothing more than a witness to the Love and Mercy of God that I do not take for granted
The mystery of the Gospel since the beginning all God, the creator of all, me being the creation can only respond with thanksgiving and praise, and not do anymore creating as in doing works for others to be pleased by me and pat me on the back as if God is pleased with flesh nature works
So tell me does the clay say to the potter why am I made this way?
Do you think the creator responds to his creation as if the creation made God, God forbid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[homwardbound]

No, you want to give the HS credit for those that repent, then you must also give the HS credit for failure for those that do not repent. In other words, you have taken all responsibility and accountability away from man to repent and put it all upon the HS.

By this post here you just negated free will to choose to believe or not, the invitation is still out here today, you are invited to the wedding, praying by Father you are coming
For he knows who believes and who just say they do
Love you anyway, and this love will not stop pursuing you, for it is not mine it is my Father's through Son Christ who is the propitiation for you, and all the world for salvation that is being preached to you

 

[Alligator]

Okay, can we start right here first ? is there a before and after the cross?
Answer this and if want I will give scripture that states there is. And if we can reconcile this that there is a before and after the cross, then we might be able to segregate any errors either of us have to the truth, do you agree?

Not sure what you're getting at, but yes, of course, there is a before and after.

 

[VCO]

A biblical, saving faith is a work, you cannot separate the two

NO! Saving Faith is what the HOLY SPIRIT does in the Heart to prepare the Soil to receive the seed (the word of GOD), remember the Parable of the Sower.

That soil has been Tilled, Fertilized, and Watered by the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF. You are trying to ROB GOD OF HIS GLORY FOR THE SALVATION THAT IS a Free GIFT, from HIS GRACE AND MERCY, THAT HE BRINGS INTO OUR HEARTS THROUGH THE FAITH HE PUT THERE. REPENT!

 

[VCO]

YOU posted: "[SUP]5 [/SUP]And to the one who does not work ( to earn his Salvation, but works only because he LOVES GOD ) but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,"



--------------------------
The implication of YOUR OWN WORDS is if one does not work, he does not love the Lord.


Now unless you try and argue one can be saved WITHOUT loving the Lord, then you have made being saved (loving the Lord) conditional upon works.


Jn 14:15 love is equated to obedience, so you cannot have one without the other meaning no one can love God while not obeying God. Disobedience proves no love for God.

SEABASS,

READ what I wrote without your PRESUPPOSITIONS that were brainwashed into your head.

You are SAVED the moment we first believed in the heart by HIS GRACE,
(which means it is UNEARNED and we have done NOTHING to deserve it.)

LOOSE YOUR BRAINWASHED DEFINITION OF SAVED TOO.

SAVED is NOT SANCTIFICATION, the process of becoming more and more like CHIRST.
Sanctification is an on going lifelong walk of obedience, because we LOVE Him for Saving us.

SAVED is forgiven of our sin debt and cleansed purely by HIS BLOOD HE SHED ON THE CROSS.
It also includes the work of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, conviction of sin leading to repentance,
bringing our human spirit to become ETERNALLY ALIVE to the will of GOD, which was born dead
to the will of GOD, because of the sin nature, which we inherited from ADAM, and GENUINE FAITH.

HAVING BEEN SAVED produces in us LOVE for HIM, AND SUBMISSION TO HIS LORDSHIP,
which in turn PRODUCES, (because the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in our hearts), that
Loving desire and ability to OBEY HIM with the pure motive of Loving Him back because
He SAVED US.

THUS, if that seed of FAITH, was put there by the HOLY SPIRIT,
and NOT a product of our human mind. IT will grow and produce
LOVING Obedience, "our Christian WALK", because He SAVED US.

 

[TaylorTG]

Re: Howardbound

Please clarify to me here if I am wrong your obedient Faith as I am seeing is from works true or false?
And if true whose works yours?

It's true that God may inspire us to perform good works, but depending on our faith, we may not obey and perform good works at all, or [SUP]1[/SUP]the sanctity of whatever works we perform will be weakened.

Works is from obedient faith. God inspires us to perform the works, but in the end, we are really the ones who decide if we would want to perform them. (free will)




I can say the exact same thing about Protestants, hence this bible verse: Matthew 13:25 United a kingdom stands, divided it falls.

Taylor,notice I said Catholicism is heretical, did I say the follower is condemned? No. Of course they most definitely can be if they aren't following Christ.

A Christian does not fall away, because his faith is genuine. You cannot have faith and fall away, it doesn't work like that.

Faith may be genuine, but personal experience tells us that [SUP]2[/SUP]faith itself has stages or levels; strong and weak points. Even genuine faith can be weak/weak faith can be genuine.

Have you read some stories that Atheists post on Atheist forums or commonly known websites such as youtube? Some Atheists seem/seemed to genuinely try to muster enough faith to believe in God, but because of hypocritical attitudes religious peoples may display, as well as mass confusion caused by we know who, they lose whatever genuine faith they have.



The best way to strengthen the faith of others whose faith is weak is by simply living the example of Christ, and this is why good works can be beneficial to our salvation.

faith -----> serving God via the mind
good works -----> serving God via the body







[HR][/HR][SUP]1and 2[/SUP]Numbers 20:7-12