Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[homwardbound]

So then you agree, faith alone justifies and if that faith does not have fruit, then it wasn't really faith?

Or maybe not as of yet for Father never leaves those that beleive, one a lot of times has to burn before they learn as that man that was kicked out to burn, so that his soul might be saved as in 1 Cor 5, you think?
If Father has sealed you and Father does do this on the very first day one believed Father through Son, and does not give up on teaching us truth over error.
[h=3]Ephesians 1:6[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

[h=3]Ephesians 1:7[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace

[h=3]Ephesians 1:13[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[homwardbound]

I agree with almost everything you wrote. We may interpret or think that those who fail at succeeding in faith, those who don't bear "good fruit" are saved, but it is unprovable due to our lack at having been to Heaven and fully beyond this life and the Scriptures that seem to say otherwise. So, I don't seek to teach that which I think or interpret, I fail at this too often, and therefore, try to teach that which I would stake my life on.

And I stake my life on God just loves us all, shown to all by Son going to his death for us first; to be risen again and is; to give us new life in Spirit and truth, either beleive God or not and the fruits will show in love to all from Father through you, not taking the credit for this all credit to Son and Father
Thank you Jesus, thank you Father

 

[homwardbound]

Then you contradict Ephesians 2:8-9 and yourself, because all faith is given to us by God, and like you said faith comes with works right? So God gave us a free packaged deal. You both trust and obey, you can't have faith then fall away. Faith produces works, faith justifies, faith comes from grace, grace comes from God.

Oh trust me, we understood, got to praise God for Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc.

Could this be as Paul reported he will glory in both those that preach in sincerity and those that do not? For Christ is preached?
And did not
Jesus himself say to his disciples to leave them alone, those that were casting out demons in his name, that did not follow them?
He said a divided kingdom can't stand, if satan is casting out Satan it will not stand will it? So if Christ is preached a big Hallelujah you think?

 

[SeaBass]

Originally Posted by SeaBass

But this does not change the fact that without "doing" one is not a friend of Christ, no right to tree of life and cannot enter into the city, is not of God, is not righteous, will not abide forever, cannot come to the light, will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

SeaBass, I would agree with you on much of this,

It is not me saying it, those verses I posted that require "doing" come straight from the bible.

but

There is not "but" to it, one accepts those bible verses or not.

No, many of those verse show the "doing' is in order to obtain salvation while others show "doing" is required to maintain salvation for the Christian:

no doing = no entering the kingdom of heaven
no doing = no right to tree of life
no doing = not righteous
no doing = will not abide forever
no doing = no friend of Christ
no doing = cannot come to the light


So doing is required to obtain salvation and maintain that salvation.

I would clarify it in the same way Paul clarifies salvation in Rom 8:30 predestined - called - justified - glorified. Notice that sanctification is not mentioned here. There is a present day working out of our sanctification that will reap all the rewards and lifestyle you mentioned above. We will be a friend of Christ, we will have the reward of the right to eat the tree of life, of entering the city, the rewards mentioned in Revelation, which phrases are need to be understood as in some cases euphemistic, that is they only give a part of the picture.

We will also have all the marks of fellowship from 1 John, we will be of God, be righteous, abide forever, come to the light. This is not initial salvation/justification, 1 John speaks of completed joy and extended fellowship with God, these are marks of continued faith in God and continued sanctification, a progress away from sin and towards holiness.

And the idea of entering the kingdom of heaven from Matt. 7 is an awesome picture of living out kingdom living now. I believe it very much may mean the same as the wise man building his house upon the rock, entering the kingdom is a metaphor for actually living out the kingdom principles now in this life, which will bring reward in the next life.

"Entering the kingdom" of Mt 7:21 is talking about salvation, entering is done by the strait gate, v13.

Jn 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Enter the kingdom = salvation or does the new birth have NOTHING to do with salvation?

 

[SeaBass]

You are putting the emphasis on dragging down GOD's Standard to what man can do, rather than on what HE DID, just like the Pharisees did.

In reality we cannot ever live up to GOD's Standard of Perfection, to earn Salvation. WE ALL FALL SHORT!


Romans 3:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.


Paul started out, having been a member of the Sanhedrin, thinking He could live up to GOD's Standard.

LOOK what He said when the HOLY SPIRIT made him aware that HE COULD NOT live up to GOD's Standard.


Romans 7:13-25 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, did what is good cause my death? Absolutely not! On the contrary, sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment, sin might become sinful beyond measure.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am made out of flesh, sold into sin’s power.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For I do not understand what I am doing, because I do not practice what I want to do, but I do what I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is sin living in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For I do not do the good that I want to do, but I practice the evil that I do not want to do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this dying body?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin.

When you try to put "what man can do" as the focal point, YOU HAVE LOWERED THE STANDARDS OF GOD, and create all kinds of contradictions, and you are pretending to make HIS FREE GIFT OF GRACE, something you can earn.

When you come to the realization that GOD's standards are TOO HIGH for any man to live up to; it drives us to our knees crying out for a SAVIOR, and a willing surrender to HIM as LORD and MASTER. THEN YOU ARE SET FREE OF SIN's CONTROL (SAVED), and the struggle to earn one's Salvation; because of what HE DID; NOT because of what we can DO.

The good news, however, is with the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF IN YOU, you now have the power to do what you could not. Because the Spirit of CHRIST is in us empowering us to say NO to the temptation to sin; and YES to GOD's desire for us to do good. NOW when Paul realized that TRUTH, did he claim for himself the credit for doing good; or did Paul give all the GLORY TO CHRIST.

Galatians 2:20 (GW)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live I live by believing in God's Son, who loved me and took the punishment for my sins.

It is a hard thing at first to totally let go, and let HIM DO IT THROUGH YOU, but it will get easier, as we learn to GIVE HIM ALL THE GLORY.

Man is to obey in order to try and live up to God's standard. Doing nothing is not God's standard. God is not expecting perfect, sinless obedience but an obedient faithfulness as Abraham had.

 

[SeaBass]

Correct, however do not lose site of the FACT that the seed of FAITH SAVED US purely by HIS GRACE, and then it will produce a crop of good works if it was genuine.


Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. ( SAVED ) And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ( SAVED before we do anything. )
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. ( SAVED - for the purpose of producing good works motivated purely out of Love for GOD, from that genuine faith. )
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ( SAVED and BORN AGAIN ) for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

You keep saying faith that produces works. Faith that produces works is not "faith alone" but faith AND works.

Faith alone NEVER has any works or else it is not alone but accompanied by works. And the bible ties faith to works so closely that a biblical faith is a work.

 

[SeaBass]

No, they point our that Our Christian Walk with Christ, is not how we get saved, but rather what we do because we are SAVED.

no doing = no entering the kingdom of heaven
no doing = not righteous
no doing = cannot come to the light


These have to do with "getting" saved.

One cannot "get" saved outside the kingdom, not righteous, in darkness....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You keep saying faith that produces works. Faith that produces works is not "faith alone" but faith AND works.

Faith alone NEVER has any works or else it is not alone but accompanied by works. And the bible ties faith to works so closely that a biblical faith is a work.

One has to have faith BEFORE any work can be accomplished.

The point is, When Does God adopt you as his child. At the moment of faith, before any work is done (faith minus works) or after the first work, or many works are done.

 

[SeaBass]

One has to have faith BEFORE any work can be accomplished.

The point is, When Does God adopt you as his child. At the moment of faith, before any work is done (faith minus works) or after the first work, or many works are done.

If this is true, then if no work is accomplished then that initial "faith only" which is void of works does not save. It is not a genuine, saving faith being alone without works.


God doe snot accept those that do nothing, but those that have an OBEDIENT faith, Heb 5:9.

You are trying to get one saved by a dead faith only, then he can do works.


According to "faith only doctrine" works are NEVER necessary either in "getting" saved or maintaining salvation.

 

[homwardbound]

Not sure what you're getting at, but yes, of course, there is a before and after.

Before the cross was and is under the Law and no flesh can perform it perfectly, and all the old Law had to be fulfilled. Remember when john the Baptist said he needed Baptized of Christ not him to Baptize Christ and Christ said he must do all that is right?
was that Christ fulfilling the Law and Prophets? Is that not what he came here to do?

Matthew 5:17 [ Christ Fulfills the Law ] “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “Itisfinished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

It is finished did he fulfill the Law and Prophets and if he did, which he did what does this do, does this bring in something new?
Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:16 [ The Mediator’s Death Necessary ] For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.




So right before your eyes is stated in scripture, the old and the new today we are in new after the cross, Christ whom lives forever in the order of:
Psalm 110:4 The Lord has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
Hebrews 5:6 As He also says in another place: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”;
Hebrews 5:10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”
Hebrews 6:20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 7:11 [ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:17 For He testifies: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
Hebrews 7:21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’”),

Jesus is the Priest forever resurrection in the Spirit for us to be alive in Spirit with right here right now and walk as he walked in Faith to Father and we know by him the same, no dependency on ourselves anymore to do waht we could bnever do under Law any Law
So in him, we no longer are law breakers and the Law is fulfilled in us, and maybe not there yet, but on our way by Faith in the finished work of Son for us unto new life in Spirit and truth where no sin can occur today, since all sin by the cross has been condemned to flesh nature
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

And the above scripture reveals what doubt does, and is much deeper that just about food, you think?

 

[mailmandan]

So faith only that has no works is not genuine.

Do you believe that a dead faith produces good works in order to become a living faith or BECAUSE it's a living faith?

Do you believe that a dead tree produces good fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree?

 

[Cassian]

One has to have faith BEFORE any work can be accomplished.

The point is, When Does God adopt you as his child. At the moment of faith, before any work is done (faith minus works) or after the first work, or many works are done.

confusing terminology again.
Justification is by faith and it grants entrance into Christ. Makes a person acceptable to God. But faith, or fath alone does not grant eternal life. Eternal life is through faith that endures, is constant, never faileth, when we are faithful we shall inherit eternal life.

 

[SeaBass]

Do you believe that a dead faith produces good works in order to become a living faith or BECAUSE it's a living faith?

Do you believe that a dead tree produces good fruit in order to become a living tree or BECAUSE it's a living tree?

A dead faith, like a dead tree, can never do anything, it's DEAD

Many try to get a dead faith to save then get that dead faith to produce works. Again, a dead faith can never produce works just like a dead tree can never produce any fruit.

A tree has to be living to begin with to produce fruit. Just like a faith has to be a living, working faith to begin with to produce fruit.

In other words, you cannot start out with a dead, fruitless tree and expect to get fruit just like you cannot start out with a dead workless/fruitless faith and expect to get fruit.

 

[Alligator]

A biblical, saving faith is a work, you cannot separate the two

Before the cross was and is under the Law and no flesh can perform it perfectly, and all the old Law had to be fulfilled. Remember when john the Baptist said he needed Baptized of Christ not him to Baptize Christ and Christ said he must do all that is right?
was that Christ fulfilling the Law and Prophets? Is that not what he came here to do?

Matthew 5:17 [ Christ Fulfills the Law ] “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “Itisfinished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

It is finished did he fulfill the Law and Prophets and if he did, which he did what does this do, does this bring in something new?
Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:16 [ The Mediator’s Death Necessary ] For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.




So right before your eyes is stated in scripture, the old and the new today we are in new after the cross, Christ whom lives forever in the order of:
Psalm 110:4 The Lord has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
Hebrews 5:6 As He also says in another place: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek”;
Hebrews 5:10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”
Hebrews 6:20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 7:11 [ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:17 For He testifies: “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
Hebrews 7:21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn And will not relent, ‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’”),

Jesus is the Priest forever resurrection in the Spirit for us to be alive in Spirit with right here right now and walk as he walked in Faith to Father and we know by him the same, no dependency on ourselves anymore to do waht we could bnever do under Law any Law
So in him, we no longer are law breakers and the Law is fulfilled in us, and maybe not there yet, but on our way by Faith in the finished work of Son for us unto new life in Spirit and truth where no sin can occur today, since all sin by the cross has been condemned to flesh nature
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

And the above scripture reveals what doubt does, and is much deeper that just about food, you think?

I read all of that and yes, we are no longer under the law. Yes, we are now under the new covenant after the cross. I still do not understand your point.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

confusing terminology again.

if it is confusing, then you have more problems than anyone can help you with. A 6 year old could understand what I said.

Justification is by faith and it grants entrance into Christ.

Justification is a legal term in the greek. It means you have been found innocent of ALL charges against you. Whether you were found not to be guilty, or someone paid your debt (redemption) it always means the same.

Makes a person acceptable to God. But faith, or fath alone does not grant eternal life. Eternal life is through faith that endures, is constant, never faileth, when we are faithful we shall inherit eternal life.

Eternal life is based on justification. If your not justified, your still dead in sin. End of story.

 

[homwardbound]

Re: Howardbound

It's true that God may inspire us to perform good works, but depending on our faith, we may not obey and perform good works at all, or [SUP]1[/SUP]the sanctity of whatever works we perform will be weakened.

Works is from obedient faith. God inspires us to perform the works, but in the end, we are really the ones who decide if we would want to perform them. (free will)




I can say the exact same thing about Protestants, hence this bible verse: Matthew 13:25 United a kingdom stands, divided it falls.







Faith may be genuine, but personal experience tells us that [SUP]2[/SUP]faith itself has stages or levels; strong and weak points. Even genuine faith can be weak/weak faith can be genuine.

Have you read some stories that Atheists post on Atheist forums or commonly known websites such as youtube? Some Atheists seem/seemed to genuinely try to muster enough faith to believe in God, but because of hypocritical attitudes religious peoples may display, as well as mass confusion caused by we know who, they lose whatever genuine faith they have.



The best way to strengthen the faith of others whose faith is weak is by simply living the example of Christ, and this is why good works can be beneficial to our salvation.

faith -----> serving God via the mind
good works -----> serving God via the body







[HR][/HR][SUP]1and 2[/SUP]Numbers 20:7-12

We got a pure glass of water, Christ Jesus, just doubt one little bit, a smidgeon and is that pure glass of water pure anymore
Just drop one drop of ink in that water (doubt) and one that wants the pure water has tainted it, all from themselves in reception of the doubt presented to them by the enemy. Our spiritual warfare. Time to stand maybe?
Romans 14:23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Did he do this or not?

Colossians 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

If you beleive this and you see you are presented to Father by this, then ask for the new life, believe and receive

For we are not saved by the death we are saved by the life.



Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Truth or error? And did he not come to set us free? From what? The Law or the stress and worry about the Law? and thus impute us with his type of love best described in 1Cor. 13:2-13, maybe, you all decide and be free?

For I know I can believe whatever I decide, and found that i do not have to live like a refugee as many are by being under the law that shows our curse of our first born of the flesh natural state in selfishness, ans are in need of born again:

[h=3]Romans 6:1-4[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]Dead to Sin, Alive to God[/h]6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[posthuman]

confusing terminology again.

you said it!

Justification is by faith and it grants entrance into Christ.

But faith, or fath alone does not grant eternal life.

Eternal life is through faith that endures

so let's get this straight; you say:

• justification is by faith.
• faith does not save.
• salvation is by faith.

????

why do we always seem to want to treat faith as though it's nothing but a nod of agreement?
if we simply understood faith as more than clicking "like" on Jesus' status updates, maybe we could spend less time arguing and accusing each other, and more time praising God, which if i'm not mistaken is the chief end of man.

God requires only true faith.
by His grace, true faith saves.
true faith produces works.

is English so poor a language we need to quibble over words for 200 pages?

we know in whom our salvation lies!
we know that lifting up His name in humility is good!
if there is a checklist to be filled out, it's in the Master's hands, not mine or yours; thank Him for His graciousness!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If this is true, then if no work is accomplished then that initial "faith only" which is void of works does not save. It is not a genuine, saving faith being alone without works.

Twisty.

The works are a result of faith. You ignored my whole question. Ar eyou telling me your work always follows faith immediately? What if you could not be baptized the MOMENT you had faith to do so. Is God going to hold your salvation because you are not able to do the work of your real, life giving faith?

 

[homwardbound]

Taylor, I once "believed" before I truly was converted. There is a huge difference, I know the first had a lot to do with ignorance and rejection. God quickens us to be alive (Eph. 2:1-5), draws us to Christ (John 6:44), and faith comes from hearing the Word (Rom. 10:17), and faith is given to us who are both called and drawn by His amazing grace (Eph. 2:8-10).

There is just I believe and take that for granted as the Corinthians did, yes and is why 1 Cor. is written to them, those those are called and believed were in error and needed straightening out the error that they did not see and that was taking God's grace for granted
They got the idea that in being forgiven 100%, (which is truth) they are, and so are all the world in Father's sight not man's or this world's sight, but Father's yes.

So they took the grace for granted and did not have compassion, consideration for others and just took against others free wills whatever they wanted
So now with this understanding of why; read the Corinthians from Chapter one and be enlightened to truth from Father through Son it is done , we are forgiven, and that is Father's final answer, than ks to Son. Either one believes or they do not
When one does believe they receive the love of Father beyond mankind's understanding in Spirit and truth, and actually without understanding why, do just love all, without condemnation seeing God no longer condemns you, because if Son
Praying the Spiritual ears are turned on/

 

[homwardbound]

Obedient faith has obedient works. Abraham certainly did not have faith only, Heb 11:8,17.

So we are seeing from different angles are we not? As if we all in a circle around a circus and are center of attention is Christ Jesus, and from my side of the arena, I see this and from your side you see this, and we are chatting to each other what we see. And neither one of us can see what the other is seeing until we go to that side the other one is viewing from can we?
I agree wholeheartedly in what you just stated here and thank you