Salvation Not Possible Without Works

posthuman · May 9, 2014

if i'm not mistaken, the man Calvin is not a member of this forum, and Christ Himself clearly says "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." (John 15:16)

maybe you think that by daily accusing and denouncing the believers, you commend yourself to God?
maybe you think that the Lord's righteousness is subject to your approval?
maybe we would do better to rejoice in the Lord than to daily condemn one another?

how shall we rejoice? for what cause?

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift,
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood,
to be received by faith.
(Romans 3:23-25)

because for His great love, God has chosen to show mercy to us! our justification is a gift undeserved! the condemnation and death that we all deserve has been cast away!
receive this by faith.

how can i be thankful that i "earned" a free gift?
but how shall we show our gratitude for the mercy shown to us?
by questioning the Lord's motives and authority to bless whomever He will bless?
no, but by obeying His commands.

Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones.
(Matthew 18:10)

Alligator · May 9, 2014

homwardbound said:

I Firmly believe the scriptures teach that we are not saved by anything ALONE (James 2:24), Not works alone not faith alone. I also believe the Scriptures teach that God's plan of salvation is conditional, and salvation can be lost if we do not continue to live the Christian life.(II Peter 2:20-21). I could list many verses on this but I'm sure you are aware of them since they have been posted many times..

I believe one should take the Scriptures as a whole and consider the entire message and not Cherry pick
certain scriptures to try and make their case.

Having said all that, we all realize that the one source for our salvation in Jesus Christ.

VCO · May 9, 2014

SeaBass said:

You do not read my posts do you?

Let me show again what I said:

THUS, BECAUSE HE IS OMNIPRESENT IN TIME, HE SIMPLY CHOSE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, THOSE WHO ARE CHOOSING TO SUBMIT TO JESUS CHRIST AS LORD AND MASTER.

The ability to choose to submit to Jesus Christ, is ONE of the things the Holy Spirit EMPOWERS us to do. It is with our born again spiritual mind that we make that Choice.

Joshua 24:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if it doesn’t please you to worship Yahweh, choose for yourselves today the one you will worship: the gods your fathers worshiped beyond the Euphrates River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living. As for me and my family, we will worship Yahweh.”

VCO · May 9, 2014

SeaBass said:

You appear to be treading on some very thin ice, over the center of live volcano with a very active lava pit.

When you make fun of the work of the HOLY SPIRIT,

Are you not blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

Titus 3:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

And you turned a blind I to it, and even made fun of it.

VCO · May 9, 2014

SeaBass said:

I told you, but YOU did not read it, I even repeated it. AND I am not a Calvinist.

Cassian · May 10, 2014

VCO,

The Holy Spirit influences all men to believe. It is how God is calling all men to repentance. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with anyone choosing Christ.
It is amazing the logic or total misunderstanding of scripture that one actually believes, repents, is baptised, and then one is given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and then that person can make the choice to believe. Now that is a big cart before the horse.

Cassian · May 10, 2014

VCO said:

Your sequence that you stated is not even close to Titus 3:5. Three separate steps are noted in that verse.
#1 is the work that Christ did, which is referencing the salvation from death and sin, the work that we could not do, the Gift of salvation given to all men, but here, since he is speaking to believers, they were part of humanity.
#2 is baptism. Baptism (water) is now one enters into Christ which renews the relationship lost due to Adam.
#3 then we get the Holy Spirit.
And that is ONLY what God does. Does not even consider man's cooperative effort with the Holy Spirit in attaining eternal life.

VCO · May 10, 2014

Cassian said:

Now THAT EVEN SHOCKED ME, knowing what you believe. The HOLY SPIRIT HAS EVERYTHING to do genuine Saving FAITH, primarily because you make that decision from the mind of your human spirit AFTER the HOLY SPIRIT has brought it to ETERNAL LIFE. A decision made in the fleshly mind between your ears, is not GENUINE FAITH, and most likely that person will fall away.

I know that makes no sense to you, but your human spirit has to be Eternally ALIVE via the HOly Spirit, and the HOLY SPIRIT has to be PERMANTLY IN YOUR HEART, or it will sound like foolishness to you. IT IS NOT HEAD KNOWLEDGE OR CHOOSING CHRIST INTELLECTUALLY THAT SAVES. Until you have HEART KNOWLEDGE of Jesus Christ personally, having received HIM as LORD and MASTER, you will think the things of the SPIRIT OF GOD ARE PURE FOOLISHNESS, and that "the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with anyone choosing Christ." Die in that unbelief, and you will be guilty of Blaspheming the Work of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:6-7 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that
come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and
he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Titus 3:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He saved us— not by works of righteousness that we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Cassian · May 10, 2014

VCO,

Now THAT EVEN SHOCKED ME, knowing what you believe. The HOLY SPIRIT HAS EVERYTHING to do genuine Saving FAITH, primarily because you make that decision from the mind of your human spirit AFTER the HOLY SPIRIT has brought it to ETERNAL LIFE. A decision made in the fleshly mind between your ears, is not GENUINE FAITH, and most likely that person will fall away.More man made unscriptural statements.

You are very confused as to the work of the Holy Spirit, externally upon all men, and that of the Holy Spirit indwelling of believers.

There is nothing in scripture that supposts such a notion as you have presented. YOu are also misunderstanding the concept of the fruits of the Spirit as well.

Being "born again" has NOTHING to do with believing. If it did, then every single human being is "born again" before one can believe. An absurd concept if there ever was one. NOt only that it would be a resounding negation of your other theory that a beleiver cannot fall. You have someone born again, and they might not even accept Christ in the beginning, let alone fall later. Your own theology is not consistant, which is one of the telltale signs of a false teaching.

Your I Cor 2:10-14 is addressing the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit. NOT the external work of the Holy Spirit upon every single human being. The calling of the Holy Spirit to all men to repent.

and this is speaking directly at you. Especially with the nonsense above.
the fact you do not understand Titus 3:5 when it is explained to you, shows the lack of the Spirit working in you. The Holy Spirit does not give to man false teachings.
The Holy Spirit gave the meaning of that text 2000 years ago to the Apostles who taught it to the early Church, even before it was written. Titus, written by Paul about 65AD is 30 years after the Gospel was given to the Apostles. The Church had been in existence for 30 years. That same Truth and understanding is still the same today. It has never changed and there has never been a dispute over it either.

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

Is it that hard for you to see Jesus only praised Father and Father praised Jesus and we are sent the Holy Ghost to praise Father and Son, when we believe as we praise them they praise us. We are one in Spirit and unity
Come Join the peace that passes all understanding, I since seeing this truth have not looked back, and can't know that I have no doubt, no second guessing have come to the unity of the Faith
And I am not saying I am perfect, Christ and Father are, That is where my thanksgiving and praises go to, no matter what.
You think they are not pleased in this?

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

Whatever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you can believe as you want to believe but you do not have to live like the refugee you might be. I know I do not anymore I beleive and am safe and secure in the finished work of Son
thank you though

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

Your mistake is in saying to help them. Who lived through them. Who did the speaking?
Even when Peter went to Cornelius's house a Gentile, who did the preaching Peter or God through Peter
Was Peter perplexed by this Holy Spirit of Father that came upon that household and they were saved without water Baptism? Even though afterwards they were water Baptized. Do you really think. that if they weren't God the Farther would have taken back his gift?
New life is a gift from Father through the resurrected Christ not the dead Chirst
Do not understand why you do not see this unless you are hear to keep the believer from the whole truth that is all God and scurry doubt to cause one to sin
It is by Faith in Father and Son that we are saved
Posted many scriptures in proving this:
Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Tell me where are the works for her to be saved?

Cassian · May 10, 2014

homwardbound said:

Your statement varifies the comment to which you are replying.
Not to say the statment you make would be true of unbelievers as well since they got the same Gift of salvation that Christ performed by His death and resurrection. So, you are no better off than either Satan or any unbeliever.

The former knows he was defeated by Christ, the latter is does not matter. But neither has an effect upon what Christ did for the world. Which is yours, or maybe both.

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

For all will know him, all will have the chance and choice to choose by Father's leading through the holy Spirit. And is why he sent the Holy Spirit to not only live in us, more importantly for us to agree for him to live through us just as in Matt. 10:16-20
[h=3]Matthew 10:16-20[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; [SUP]18 [/SUP]and ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Praying you are listening two ears one mouth to listen first then speak

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

Decide, and know no one in the First Testament under Law and before Law was put in place, could ever be perfect. They could accomplish much, as I am sure you have and are pretty happy over it, are you not?
Is that what you accomplished to get past and over as say stopped drinking, make you feel good, whenever you think about it? Does quitting smoking do the same if you ever smoked?
So are you married, have you quit yelling at your wife? Have you quit disputing with your family and supposed friends?
Then you are not righteous and never will be by your own doings or not doings.
As the First chosen were reminded of their sins year after year, their conscience never purged from them, had to sacrifice year after year to atone for their sins and never take them away
What makes you thin you can? When I know you can't and you do as well.
Maybe it is time fro you to come to the end of the energy of your own strength? And turn to Father in humility and raise your little white flag in giving up the war of your own flesh to Father
Your free choice truth is being revealed to you, and I can't make you drink it, and God won't either.
To believe or not to beleive is this final choice you are faced with. All in love from Father to you

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

Do not know where you got this interpretation Son, but god does just love you so much that he sent his Son to die for you and then is resurrected by Father for you to live by Spirit and truth, forsaking all flesh works of self and mankind
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

Oh grass hopper so much to learn in the depth, heigth:
[h=3]Ephesians 3:16-18[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; [SUP]17 [/SUP]that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [SUP]18 [/SUP]may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Father tells me he is trying to show you, and you know this, yet are stubborn just as it is:
Romans 7:8
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Your own commandments and others you have taken on as so in your place of worship are detaining you from see the whole truth, and are still in your sins. And if you think you are not, then you are boastful and proud, and haven't given self up as Saul did not as Saul
God is getting a hold of you, you know waht is spoken hear is truth
Love to you. not accusing you, you do that enough on your own as you are trying hard to do what is right and can't, not of self anyway
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

Not if it is of self, the carnal nature, and I do not need to know if this is true or not with you, for you and God knoweth and I am at peace with this knowing God knoweth

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

We by Faith are made new and thus are Faithful, giving no credit to self ever

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

The want to is great, and I applaud this yet it is not the completeness in rest and trust where on rests in
Father through Son

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Are you at peace yet, beyond understanding I am, and am speaking to you your Soul, as to be complete and rest from your stress works to the works one does at rest where there is no more stress

homwardbound · May 10, 2014

SeaBass said:

Abraham did do something he had sex with Hagar about fifteen years after the promise was made. then another 14 years before the promised child came.
I see this at first as doubt from Abraham, and over these years learned Father's voice and came to know truth when Father Spoke through his mistakes, and Sarah the same
Any way it is fine to be:
F-rustrated
I-nsecure
N-uerotic
E-motional

It is just fine right or is it?

Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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