Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[SeaBass]

The whole point is WHY were they doing what they considered righteousness. If they were done to try to manipulate GOD into giving them what they wanted, they are still nothing more than filthy rags. BUT it they were done purely out of a deep LOVE for God, then and ONLY THEN are they genuinely good works. Why do you keep your focus on the deeds only, instead of the MOTIVE behind the deeds?


Revelation 2:20-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But I have this against you: You tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and teaches and deceives My slaves to commit sexual immorality and to eat meat sacrificed to idols.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to repent of her sexual immorality.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Look! I will throw her into a sickbed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her practices.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] I will kill her children with the plague. Then all the churches will know that I am the One who examines minds and hearts, and I will give to each of you according to your works.

Christ makes it VERY CLEAR that Heavenly rewards are based on MOTIVES behind the deeds.

1 Chronicles 28:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

YET you keep preaching MUST DO, instead of Loving the LORD enough to: "serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts."

When Isaiah wrote all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags he was speaking of those in iniquity .....and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away,...thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.


God does not hide His face or consume those who are doing His righteousness/those not living in iniquity, But God entreats, helps those that do His righteousness, Isa 64:5.



Motives are nothing without deeds.

 

[11Eleven-Bravo]

No you didnt. I didnt mean to make it sound like something you didnt say.

No worries brother Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

 

[feedm3]

No matter what though, it is God that decides, not us. Are we to work out our own salvation or others?

Philippians 2:12-13

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



Philippians 2:12-13

Living Bible (TLB)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Dearest friends, when I was there with you, you were always so careful to follow my instructions. And now that I am away you must be even more careful to do the good things that result from being saved, obeying God with deep reverence, shrinking back from all that might displease him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For God is at work within you, helping you want to obey him, and then helping you do what he wants.

Yes it is God that decides, and he has told us his deciding factors so that we can make righteous judgement, of our own actions and of yes others around us.

I wouldn't tell anyone you're going to hell. Yet are we not to preach, is it okay to say "the bible says"? Are we not to teach the truth in love?

Paul work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It does not mean we each have a different means of being saved, he told them that telling them he would not be there to guide them forever. no what mean?

 

[SeaBass]

I think this thread will never end it's been on and on forever

There will be a never ending struggle by faith only advocates in trying to find a way in how one can obtain salvation and maintain that salvation without ever doing works.

 

[SeaBass]

Just completely ignore the verses that state not to argue and keep fighting? -sigh-

Fight the good fight of faith

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow you dont even scroll back to see what started this before you open your mouth. Lol here is your post.



Now as you can see, you responded to my original post saying we must repent in order to remain Christians, as i showed the church at Corith and in Hebrews that Christians were told they must obey.

This just goes to prove your insincerity, and trickery. No place in my response to you did I say a thing about repenting. Your the one who added those words.

My response was about works. Not repenting. So are you ever going to answer?

I will ask again. Does God know who has true faith when he decides to save someone or does he not? And do not ask me what God bases that on. God is God. He does not need me or you to tell him what he must base it on. HE KNOWS OUR HEARTS.

SO in red above - you disagreed that any works of obedience was needed. Therefore you disagreed on the topic Christians must not live in sin in order to go to heaven.

And here you go off the deep end again, Your talking about how one lives AFTER salvation. Not how one gets saved. (SMH) are you ever going to stick to topic. And ps. stop telling me what I believe you obviously do not know.

Now I just flat out proved you wrong again. You are off topic and avoiding questions that pertain to the original topic YOU decided to chime in on.

1. You said I said something I did not
2. You went off topic again.
3. Your refusal to stick to topic is just amazing.

(Do i need to paste my orginal comment for you as well? Or can you just skip back a page and take a look)

Go right ahead. You did what your doing here. And not sticking to topic. If you want to prove this, then go ahead and past it, And prove me right.

Now you know where this is going, because i've got you before in your paradox of belief, so you just tried to act as if I was off topic.

Ha that not a very good strategy you try with everything. When wrong, just pretend you werent with confidence. lol forget going back a page to see if that is the case, no one will be smart enough to do that.

You're just playing games with yourself. Once again WILL YOU ADMIT YOU JUST BEEN PROVED WRONG ABOUT THE TOPIC AT LEAST? WOW!

So back to my questions that pertian to "if you say works have to be done...".

Yes I do say obedience is vital.

So:
1. Do you believe a saved person will live in sin (works pertain to salvation the original topic)
2. Do you teach others if they live in sin - they were never saved?

Why are you so afraid of these? It's sad. When you have a sound doctrine you can answer anything.

You keep coming back at me because you're mad, deep down you hate the fact I can get running from questions. Your not used to it because you deal with unstudied novices.

So you keep coming back for more, and it's obvious you think pretending is really fooling people.

Look im going to tell you something not to gloat or anything, when we were having those long discussions about James, and Acts, and the Greek, the prodigal son etc. People who were on your side of belief PM'd me telling me to stop being prideful because i proved my point and you knew but were not going to admit it. Im only telling you this so you will stop putting on a show. IF you want to have a real study, then lets do it.

You responded to my post first about works of obedience for those who were ALREADY Christians. GO back a page and look what you were responding to.

It's right there you cant deny it. So please answer the questions you have provoked, or stop talking to me, or ACCEPT MY CHALLENGE FOR A PUBLIC DEBATE.

remember you dont have to do anything. I'll find a hosting congregation in YOUR area, i will come to you. All you have to do is show up.

It would benifeit BOTH of us - besides we have pretty much been doing it already for a while now. May as well be in person

If not thats fine, but at least answer the questions you have provoked which as i proved are very much on topic and dealing with your first post to me.

Cmon lets have a discussion, not show for people no ones looking anyway lol

Again, I am not going to answer a question of how a person who is saved by God (by HIS ADOPTING AND SEALING THEM INTO HIS FAMILY) should act. That is NOT THE TOPIC. so stop asking such questions which can not be answered, because it is NOT THE DISCUSSION.

And you answer. Are you telling me God can NOT KNOW A PERSONS HEART WHEN HE SAVES THEM? or does he KNOW A PERSONS HEART?? WHich is it?? You can not have it both ways!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]

How one gets saved?

James 1
21 [/SUP]Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Agree

Mark 13:13

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This is physical salvation. Not eternal salvation. the context is enduring through the great tribulation. You will be saved by the return of Christ.

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

baptized by what? The HS, or water? How can water (A work of men) usurpt the baptism of the HS (A Work of God)

And does this contradict John 3: 16. which says those who believe alone will be saved and given eternal life?

John 10:9

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Amen. No works here, Just faith in Christ.

If you would just read it as the people of the OT read it. you would stop trying to add your own works. You can not save yourself. why are you trying to?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can see where you are coming from. Yet not sure if I agree. I also dont agree if one lives in sin, he was never saved. How could he have never been saved?

Ask yourself this question. Can a person who is born of God live in sin (as he did before he was saved) considering the following.

1. He was made a new creature in Christ
2. He was given the HS
3. He was given the power to understand what sin is, and how it damages us and those around us
4. He is being taught by God these things
5. He is chastened by the HS when he does sin?

So how can he live in sin?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Never did I mention in my post that we shouldn't turn away from our sins. I was primarily trying to point out that good deeds will come by our faith. The rest was just extra.

That is true faith. If you do not trust someone (faith) your NOT going to do what they say, thus your not going to show works.

But we have people who do works to save themselves. Thus they look really no different than people with faith (except for the arrogance and boasting of their works) and thus we have the problem.

It is easy to tell a licentious person who does not work. It is hard to tell a religious person who is doing work. But for the wrong reason.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Fight the good fight of faith

How about having faith in God, His work and his promise. And stop having faith in yourself and your work.

Your fight of faith in self will be tiring and fruitless. Try having faith in God. Who can not get tired. and will fight the fight for you.

 

[Alligator]

Fight the good fight of faith

How about having faith in God, His work and his promise. And stop having faith in yourself and your work.

Your fight of faith in self will be tiring and fruitless. Try having faith in God. Who can not get tired. and will fight the fight for you.

if your faith isn't strong enough to fight for it, then you don't have a faith that will save you. Read Jas. Chapter 2. Also see this.
2Philippians 2:12New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

 

[Cassian]

Agree



This is physical salvation. Not eternal salvation. the context is enduring through the great tribulation. You will be saved by the return of Christ.



baptized by what? The HS, or water? How can water (A work of men) usurpt the baptism of the HS (A Work of God)

And does this contradict John 3: 16. which says those who believe alone will be saved and given eternal life?


Amen. No works here, Just faith in Christ.

If you would just read it as the people of the OT read it. you would stop trying to add your own works. You can not save yourself. why are you trying to?

[/SIZE][/B]

everyone of the text quoted has a condition attached and in each case it will be granted at some time in the future. IT never says one has been saved. None of these even hints that one is saved, but shall be saved.

Baptism is both, water AND the Holy Spirit. John 3:5. Holy Spirit NEVER baptises without water.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if your faith isn't strong enough to fight for it, then you don't have a faith that will save you.

If my faith is in myself (like it is obvious yours is) then you would be right. But my faith is NOT in myself. it is in God. Are you claiming God is not powerful enough to fight for me?

Read Jas. Chapter 2. Also see this.
2Philippians 2:12New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

1. James is written to you. To test your faith. If you are a hearer only, or a hearer and a doer. If your just a hearer but not a doer. are you really saved?

It is not written to prove one can lose salvation.

Philippians is talking to people who ALREADY are saved. Telling them to work out the gift they have. Not telling them to fear losing salvation. But to fear losing the ability to use the gift God gave them. Which is to what? Be lights in the world. which will do what? draw people to Christ.

I fear this, Every day I fear this. As paul did. But I do not fear losing salvation. It is not of my power. but of Gods power. I can not save myself. I am astounded you think you can!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

everyone of the text quoted has a condition attached and in each case it will be granted at some time in the future. IT never says one has been saved. None of these even hints that one is saved, but shall be saved.

Baptism is both, water AND the Holy Spirit. John 3:5. Holy Spirit NEVER baptises without water.

1. John 3: 5 is NOT Baptism
2. The HS baptizes without water all the time. (He sure baptized cornelious and his family without water, As well as all the apostles)

So sad you relegate God to wait for the work of men, And not have the ability to do the work himself.

There is ONE baptism. Not two. Not three.

It is either HS, Water, or watever other baptism you all want to believe in, Make up your mind.

 

[Alligator]

If my faith is in myself (like it is obvious yours is) then you would be right. But my faith is NOT in myself. it is in God. Are you claiming God is not powerful enough to fight for me?



1. James is written to you. To test your faith. If you are a hearer only, or a hearer and a doer. If your just a hearer but not a doer. are you really saved?

It is not written to prove one can lose salvation.

Philippians is talking to people who ALREADY are saved. Telling them to work out the gift they have. Not telling them to fear losing salvation. But to fear losing the ability to use the gift God gave them. Which is to what? Be lights in the world. which will do what? draw people to Christ.

I fear this, Every day I fear this. As paul did. But I do not fear losing salvation. It is not of my power. but of Gods power. I can not save myself. I am astounded you think you can!

Look eternally-blind, it's not about you or me either. When are you going to stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? You like to make assumptions don't you?, unfortunately they're never right.

 

[newbirth]

Agree



This is physical salvation. Not eternal salvation. the context is enduring through the great tribulation. You will be saved by the return of Christ.



baptized by what? The HS, or water? How can water (A work of men) usurpt the baptism of the HS (A Work of God)

And does this contradict John 3: 16. which says those who believe alone will be saved and given eternal life?


Amen. No works here, Just faith in Christ.

If you would just read it as the people of the OT read it. you would stop trying to add your own works. You can not save yourself. why are you trying to?

[/SIZE][/B]

Where did I ever say my works. You say Just faith in Christ no works. Paul say even your faith is a work so no work means you have no faith.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.


[SUP]2 [/SUP]We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

 

[Cassian]

1. John 3: 5 is NOT Baptism
2. The HS baptizes without water all the time. (He sure baptized cornelious and his family without water, As well as all the apostles)

Giving one the Holy Spirit is NOT baptism. Which is why each was baptised as well.

So sad you relegate God to wait for the work of men, And not have the ability to do the work himself.

which is your erroneous assumptions again. Scripture states that God uses men and He uses the material world to convey His grace. That you dispute scripture is your choice, but it does not change what scripture has meant for 2000 years without change as the Gospel of Christ as He gave it, unspoiled by men, such as you.

There is ONE baptism. Not two. Not three.

That is exactly what Eph 4:5 states, as does the Nicene Creed almost 4 centuries later and still does today. There has always been ONLY ONE baptism. Water and the Spirit. just as John 3:5 states and depicts entry into His Body, just as Eph 4:5 also states.

It is either HS, Water, or watever other baptism you all want to believe in, Make up your mind.
[/QUOTE] Christ's mind was made up 2000 years ago. The Apostles instituted water/Spirit baptism and it has been the same ever since and no one has ever disputed it or tried to change it.

Sola scripturists like your self have been arguing over it for 500 years and nothing has been resolved and they will continue to squabble over it until Christ comes again. It is the nature of man.

 

[feedm3]

Ask yourself this question. Can a person who is born of God live in sin (as he did before he was saved) considering the following.

1. He was made a new creature in Christ
2. He was given the HS
3. He was given the power to understand what sin is, and how it damages us and those around us
4. He is being taught by God these things
5. He is chastened by the HS when he does sin?

So how can he live in sin?

Wow, I cant believe what I am hearing. Im really glad you're saying this. I agree 100%.

As for me being off topic, EG my post that YOU repsonded to was about repentance. So how can i be speaking of repentance, you come in and then start asking about HOW one is saved, i continue with repentance, and you say I am off topic.

Here man, let me do what you should be doing, going back and SHOWING you the topic YOU responded to.

You responed to post 3457
in which I was saying,

Of course, it is Grace, not of works, no one was so great and pure God sent his son, no one can boast. It is purely undeserved grace, a gift, this does not imply that obedience has nothing to do with grace.

Disobedience cause our grace to be "in vain".:

2 Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain

This is what the entire post YOU responded to was about. See DISOBEDIENCE OF A CHRISTIAN so im still speaking of the same topic with you, yet you will not admit YOUR the one purposely trying to stay off topic to avoid these questions.

Now once again, I PROVED to you who is off topic. PROVED to you my questions are valid, now will you be a man answer them?

 

[feedm3]

Ask yourself this question. Can a person who is born of God live in sin (as he did before he was saved) considering the following.

1. He was made a new creature in Christ
2. He was given the HS
3. He was given the power to understand what sin is, and how it damages us and those around us
4. He is being taught by God these things
5. He is chastened by the HS when he does sin?

So how can he live in sin?

Actually, You just did answer them here. SO we agree, one MUST repent in order to be/have been saved. Who cares if you say "never was" or "cannot be". That is not the point.

You right here are saying a person that is saved cannot live in sin, or he is NOT saved.

So then you teach repentance is a MUST even tho you believe the person was never saved or cannot be saved if he lives in SIn.

SO what in the world have you been trying to convince me of this entire time?

That "he was never saved"? Okay if that's you view, what do I care? The fundamental fact is that living in sin WILL NOT grant heaven.

So you do teach repentance is ESSENTIAL to salvation, otherwise it would have no effect of having never been saved.

So repentance is something God expects us to do as obedience. SO you do believe obedience is essential to salvation, because once again, YOU SAY ONE CANNOT LIVE IN SIN

How you say it is pointless to argue about, the consequence is the same for living in sin - Damnation

So this means YOU believe if you turned to a life of sin, you would have never been saved. Therefor you cannot do so, you must repent.

 

[AllForHIm]

Ask yourself this question. Can a person who is born of God live in sin (as he did before he was saved) considering the following.

1. He was made a new creature in Christ
2. He was given the HS
3. He was given the power to understand what sin is, and how it damages us and those around us
4. He is being taught by God these things
5. He is chastened by the HS when he does sin?

So how can he live in sin?

Eternally, if you are saying a person MUST change his life in order to be saved, or as freedom says "have been saved" then you do believe in what your claiming you do not.

You said we cannot count on ourselves for salvation, but the finished work of Christ on the cross. Then you say if we do not make some change away from sin, (even though we believe - Jn 3:16) then we were never saved?

Your saying two things here. I now see what others are saying. Your saying nothing we can do will cause us to be saved, yet something we do not do can cause us to have never been saved.

Well then we still are counting on ourselves because we have to make sure we complete this change you believe in.

Fact is you are both wrong. You both believe in works and you both do not fully trust in the completed work of the cross.

When one believes, he is saved. No matter what happens after that point, nothing can take away our salvation. Especially sin, because was defeated at Calvary.

You guys need stronger faith. That starts with not trusting in yourself to get to heaven.