Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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I'm not sure you understood what I stated, However, your texts and your interpretation is not what scripture says, no matter what I believe. I may like to think that God will prevent me from sinning, or become wayward, and will in no wise permit me to fall. But that is NOT what scripture states.
Notice that in your citation of Matt 7:16-23 the two groups of people did the very same works. One group was saved, the other was not. It is not that they did the works, but they did not continue to do the works. It is written in past tense. They stopped living IN Christ. This is a good example of those who think that simply by saying they are finitely saved on initial faith cannot never fall. There is no text in all of scripture that even hints at that phenomonon ever happening.
You possess eternal life as a promise, not a done deal. Eternal life is dependent on you passing the test of living faithfully. Man has no guarantee that he can state that he will be believing 10years down the road. Satan is much stronger than you think he might be. He not only enticed Eve and Adam to disobey God, nothing has changed, he can still entice you to fall as well. God cannot by His own sovereign will and design force you to join with Him and cannot force man to remain faithful either.
God is not our problem. God loves all men, why would He not love those that return that love. But when that love is no longer returned, God does not grant eternal life anyway, just because you might have believed at some time in the past.
Citing texts that shows God's promises does not help the doctrine of OSAS. Our attaining eternal life is our decision from beginning to end. You will give an account of what you did with that gift you were given.
Notice that in your citation of Matt 7:16-23 the two groups of people did the very same works. One group was saved, the other was not. It is not that they did the works, but they did not continue to do the works. It is written in past tense. They stopped living IN Christ. This is a good example of those who think that simply by saying they are finitely saved on initial faith cannot never fall. There is no text in all of scripture that even hints at that phenomonon ever happening.
You possess eternal life as a promise, not a done deal. Eternal life is dependent on you passing the test of living faithfully. Man has no guarantee that he can state that he will be believing 10years down the road. Satan is much stronger than you think he might be. He not only enticed Eve and Adam to disobey God, nothing has changed, he can still entice you to fall as well. God cannot by His own sovereign will and design force you to join with Him and cannot force man to remain faithful either.
God is not our problem. God loves all men, why would He not love those that return that love. But when that love is no longer returned, God does not grant eternal life anyway, just because you might have believed at some time in the past.
Citing texts that shows God's promises does not help the doctrine of OSAS. Our attaining eternal life is our decision from beginning to end. You will give an account of what you did with that gift you were given.
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, this will date me, but should I call you Walter Brennan or just Will Sonnet? LOLPersonally, I think GOD is intelligent enough to say what HE means, and means what He says.
No you missed the ENTIRE POINT of that portion of Scripture, One Group had in inner personal spiritual LOVE relationship with HIM as LORD, meaning they genuinely out of a willing heart submitted to HIS LORDSHIP; while the other Group did NOT REALLY KNOW HIM in their unsaved human spirits, they falsely assumed that only head knowledge about Him was sufficient. Even the demons believe that much.
No you missed the ENTIRE POINT of that portion of Scripture, One Group had in inner personal spiritual LOVE relationship with HIM as LORD, meaning they genuinely out of a willing heart submitted to HIS LORDSHIP; while the other Group did NOT REALLY KNOW HIM in their unsaved human spirits, they falsely assumed that only head knowledge about Him was sufficient. Even the demons believe that much.
Still not using an experience to interpret Scripture. I absolutely believe Scripture must be used to interpret Scripture, PLUS the HOLY SPIRIT who is our teacher of all things.
John 14:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
John 14:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Your assessment is why you have understood it incorrectly. Lets put it in the time frame of these peoples lives.
For this example lets make it 10 people and they all entered Christ, believed, were baptised at the same time. Now the text says for our example 5 remained faithful doing the works that are mentioned, They loved the Lord, they really knew Him and believed to the end.
The other 5 also loved the Lord, really knew Him for many years possibly, but they did not remain faithful, no longer loved the Lord. Notice how similiar this is to the parable of the 10 virgines, 5 became foolish and assumed they knew when Christ would come and took Him for granted, and did not remain faithful to the end.
Your explanation, not only is not scriptural, but it is not anywhere near reality.
Doing the works of righteousness that all were doing the same says NOTHING about a so-called difference between what you call saved knowledge and head knowledge. It is a nice rationalization to fit your incorrect understanding of scripture.
For this example lets make it 10 people and they all entered Christ, believed, were baptised at the same time. Now the text says for our example 5 remained faithful doing the works that are mentioned, They loved the Lord, they really knew Him and believed to the end.
The other 5 also loved the Lord, really knew Him for many years possibly, but they did not remain faithful, no longer loved the Lord. Notice how similiar this is to the parable of the 10 virgines, 5 became foolish and assumed they knew when Christ would come and took Him for granted, and did not remain faithful to the end.
Your explanation, not only is not scriptural, but it is not anywhere near reality.
Doing the works of righteousness that all were doing the same says NOTHING about a so-called difference between what you call saved knowledge and head knowledge. It is a nice rationalization to fit your incorrect understanding of scripture.
First your use of John 14:26 is out of context. It is not even speaking of your or any other believer. It is being addressed ONLY to the disciples, unless you are going to claim that you lived at the time of Jesus and were a disciple and He taught you personally as He did them.
I Cor 2:12-14 does not address my statement either.
Let me put it this way, maybe you will understand. Scripture was given by the Holy Spirit and what was Canonized was written 1900 years ago. So quite obviously, it was NOT DETERMINED BY YOUR EXPERIENCE. Or to even put it another way, YOUR EXPERICNE DID NOT WRITE SCRIPTURE.
I Cor 2:12-14 does not address my statement either.
Let me put it this way, maybe you will understand. Scripture was given by the Holy Spirit and what was Canonized was written 1900 years ago. So quite obviously, it was NOT DETERMINED BY YOUR EXPERIENCE. Or to even put it another way, YOUR EXPERICNE DID NOT WRITE SCRIPTURE.
H
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:6-9
I am so grateful that I have a loving and merciful God who sent His son, Jesus Christ, to die on my behalf. Although I deserve hell, I am saved by His grace.
I am so grateful that I have a loving and merciful God who sent His son, Jesus Christ, to die on my behalf. Although I deserve hell, I am saved by His grace.
B
Let's go back. Explain this statement you made...
'Unfortunately more believers have probably fallen from grace than will recieve the promise at the end.'
What is the promise you are referring to? How does a believer fall from grace, especially in light of verses like this in (Rom 14:4)...
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Verse 4 is a promise from God who will hold up the believer and make him stand. We also have another promise in (Rom 5:1,2) that says we are firmly fixed and established in grace...
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
What God has done for the believer is not only has He saved him by grace but He has firmly fixed and established him in grace so even if he falls he falls into the grace wherein he stands and God is able to hold him up because of that grace. This is why the author of Hebrews says that it is a good thing for the heart to be established in grace (Heb 13:9). A believer can never fall from grace in their standing for God will not let that happen. A believer may fall into sin and stay there in a backslidden state but his only way out is through grace. He humbles himself under the mighty hand of God and gets access to the grace wherein he stands (James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5). All believers are justified and stand in grace with no exceptions.
In Gal 5:4, for a believer to fall from grace, it is dealing with their experience and fellowship with Christ and not with their standing of being justified before God. The believer is to grow in grace (1 Peter 3:18) and when we replace the Spirit of grace with legalism or if we fall into sin through the flesh, we have broken our fellowship and no longer are we daily receiving grace from God. This can even happen when we do not make ourselves available to hear the word of His grace (Acts 20:32) being preached in the midst of God's assembly that builds us up. For the believer to fall from grace in Galatia they we beginning to go back and adhere to the law instead of walking in the Spirit by faith and growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ.
'Unfortunately more believers have probably fallen from grace than will recieve the promise at the end.'
What is the promise you are referring to? How does a believer fall from grace, especially in light of verses like this in (Rom 14:4)...
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Verse 4 is a promise from God who will hold up the believer and make him stand. We also have another promise in (Rom 5:1,2) that says we are firmly fixed and established in grace...
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
What God has done for the believer is not only has He saved him by grace but He has firmly fixed and established him in grace so even if he falls he falls into the grace wherein he stands and God is able to hold him up because of that grace. This is why the author of Hebrews says that it is a good thing for the heart to be established in grace (Heb 13:9). A believer can never fall from grace in their standing for God will not let that happen. A believer may fall into sin and stay there in a backslidden state but his only way out is through grace. He humbles himself under the mighty hand of God and gets access to the grace wherein he stands (James 4:6, 1 Peter 5:5). All believers are justified and stand in grace with no exceptions.
In Gal 5:4, for a believer to fall from grace, it is dealing with their experience and fellowship with Christ and not with their standing of being justified before God. The believer is to grow in grace (1 Peter 3:18) and when we replace the Spirit of grace with legalism or if we fall into sin through the flesh, we have broken our fellowship and no longer are we daily receiving grace from God. This can even happen when we do not make ourselves available to hear the word of His grace (Acts 20:32) being preached in the midst of God's assembly that builds us up. For the believer to fall from grace in Galatia they we beginning to go back and adhere to the law instead of walking in the Spirit by faith and growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ.
what you need to see is ...do you know him?
.1John2
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Do you keep his word?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:
Do you abide in him...
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
No one is making anyone obey He is asking you to please obey
.1John2
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Do you keep his word?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:
Do you abide in him...
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
No one is making anyone obey He is asking you to please obey
You are seeing what you want to see .Look what the word says...But if anyone obeys his word,[SUP](J)[/SUP] love for God[SUP][a][/SUP] is truly made complete in them.
Love is made complete in obeying God. Simply put you have to obey to show you love...that is the word you can't change that. If you love him you will keep his commands
[h=3]John 14:14-16[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Love is made complete in obeying God. Simply put you have to obey to show you love...that is the word you can't change that. If you love him you will keep his commands
[h=3]John 14:14-16[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
BradC,
the word "able" does not mean "will". God is able to do a lot of things. But He is unable to grant you eternal life UNLESS you believe and remain faithful.
But being justified by faith is not salvation either. It is actually the beginning point of one's relationship.
God's grace saved every single human being. That was the Work of Christ through His Incarnation, death and resurrection to save the world from death and sin. NOw that we all stand in this grace already, by being justified by faith we have made personal peace with God.
God cannot stop you from falling. It is the whole premise on why you were created. If what you say would even be remotely possible, then Adam would never have been permitted to fall.
Our relationship is a covenant. It is a mutual, synergistic, cooperative covenant and man is the key active link of that covenant. Whether it endures or does not endure is all dependent on man.
OUr justification before God is by faith. OUr relationship is by faith. Thus if we lose faith by falling back into our old ways, WE ARE NO LONGER JUSTIFIED, THEREFORE NO LONGER WILL ATTAIN ETERNAL LIFE, unless one repents.
there is just no guarantee in scripture that man can use to guarantee HIS faith. God is holding you accountable THROUGH YOUR FAITH. I Pet 3:-5 tells it very clearly. His power is ONLY THORUGH OUR FAITH. We lose faith, become unfaithful, obviously we do not have His power any longer.
the promise is eternal life. That is not given absolutely untill the end. Again I Pet 1:3-5.
Here are other conditions a beleiver must meet to show that He actually does love God, is willing to follow Christ. If we are not willing to return God's love, not willing to obey His commands, we are NOT His.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also might obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Hebrews 12:15
See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;
1 Peter 1:9
obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Romans 2:6-7
6 He will render to each one according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life;
this is only a sampling. There are many more in scripture that spells out the conditions of what "believes, belief" means.
the word "able" does not mean "will". God is able to do a lot of things. But He is unable to grant you eternal life UNLESS you believe and remain faithful.
But being justified by faith is not salvation either. It is actually the beginning point of one's relationship.
God's grace saved every single human being. That was the Work of Christ through His Incarnation, death and resurrection to save the world from death and sin. NOw that we all stand in this grace already, by being justified by faith we have made personal peace with God.
God cannot stop you from falling. It is the whole premise on why you were created. If what you say would even be remotely possible, then Adam would never have been permitted to fall.
Our relationship is a covenant. It is a mutual, synergistic, cooperative covenant and man is the key active link of that covenant. Whether it endures or does not endure is all dependent on man.
OUr justification before God is by faith. OUr relationship is by faith. Thus if we lose faith by falling back into our old ways, WE ARE NO LONGER JUSTIFIED, THEREFORE NO LONGER WILL ATTAIN ETERNAL LIFE, unless one repents.
there is just no guarantee in scripture that man can use to guarantee HIS faith. God is holding you accountable THROUGH YOUR FAITH. I Pet 3:-5 tells it very clearly. His power is ONLY THORUGH OUR FAITH. We lose faith, become unfaithful, obviously we do not have His power any longer.
the promise is eternal life. That is not given absolutely untill the end. Again I Pet 1:3-5.
Here are other conditions a beleiver must meet to show that He actually does love God, is willing to follow Christ. If we are not willing to return God's love, not willing to obey His commands, we are NOT His.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also might obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Hebrews 12:15
See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;
1 Peter 1:9
obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Romans 2:6-7
6 He will render to each one according to his works:
7 to those who by patience in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life;
this is only a sampling. There are many more in scripture that spells out the conditions of what "believes, belief" means.
B
You have not been taught by the Holy Spirit and there are many on this site who have the Spirit who witness the truth. There is not a single Pastor-teacher that God has raised up for the church that would teach such a thing as you have communicated on this site. You do not have the same Christ, the same Spirit or the same gospel that we have been saved by and what you have communicated leads to confusion and strife. Your gospel is not of faith and hope but one of fear and works. You do not understand the mercy and grace of God that is in the cross of Christ nor the salvation that has been offered by the Father through the Son. You limit and condition the blood of Christ based upon the lifestyle of the believer who still has his flesh and old sin nature to deal with.
You have no understanding that when sin abounds grace does much more abound. Your doctrine of justification is convoluted and has a reckless application because it violates the nature of God's justice that has been established through His Son for sinful man. Salvation is based upon one condition and that is faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified through the work of the cross. It is not partial or conditioned upon any works of righteousness that can be accomplished by man for God. It is freely given by grace through faith to all who believe and it is maintained by God in the believer through the Spirit and grace. There is nothing that can be added to it, nor is there anything that we can do to keep it because we have been sealed and accepted by the Father through His Son's accomplishments and not our own. We are now in the hand of God and no man can pluck us from that hand, not even your leaven laced doctrine.
You have no understanding that when sin abounds grace does much more abound. Your doctrine of justification is convoluted and has a reckless application because it violates the nature of God's justice that has been established through His Son for sinful man. Salvation is based upon one condition and that is faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified through the work of the cross. It is not partial or conditioned upon any works of righteousness that can be accomplished by man for God. It is freely given by grace through faith to all who believe and it is maintained by God in the believer through the Spirit and grace. There is nothing that can be added to it, nor is there anything that we can do to keep it because we have been sealed and accepted by the Father through His Son's accomplishments and not our own. We are now in the hand of God and no man can pluck us from that hand, not even your leaven laced doctrine.
Every pastor I knew a a Protestant taught what I have stated which is why there are several here who do the same. As Orthodox now, no Christian prior to the Reformation ever believed as you have stated. That is of the Holy Spirit because that is the very same teaching that was originally given to the Apostles.
I do indeed have a much different Gospel than you.
But it is not anything like you have mischaracterized. This is the atypical reply of someone who cannot prove from scripture what scripture has always meant but only from his personal opinion.
which is just another way to say that your version is not of the Gospel of Christ since it does not match that of the Gospel given to the saints in the beginning ONCE. Jude 3. It also shows a afinity to the false Satisfaction Theory of atonement.
Other than a huge contradiction your statement is quite obviously not scriptura. We are being saved through faith, that is the whole point. That faith has conditions. If we lose that faith, we no longer will receive the inheritance. God does not give out pearls to swine. He does not give out the inheritance just because some believed for a while and could not endure to the end.
You are also conflating what Christ did for mankind with the response of man to that Gift.
I do indeed have a much different Gospel than you.
But it is not anything like you have mischaracterized. This is the atypical reply of someone who cannot prove from scripture what scripture has always meant but only from his personal opinion.
which is just another way to say that your version is not of the Gospel of Christ since it does not match that of the Gospel given to the saints in the beginning ONCE. Jude 3. It also shows a afinity to the false Satisfaction Theory of atonement.
Other than a huge contradiction your statement is quite obviously not scriptura. We are being saved through faith, that is the whole point. That faith has conditions. If we lose that faith, we no longer will receive the inheritance. God does not give out pearls to swine. He does not give out the inheritance just because some believed for a while and could not endure to the end.
You are also conflating what Christ did for mankind with the response of man to that Gift.
I think you miss the whole point of the discussion. We are not trying to figure out unknowns, nor reach a compromise in our beliefs, nor are we trying to win an argument, but rather most of us are simply trying to make our individual beliefs understood, supporting them with as much Scripture as possible. In doing so, it sharpens our swords, and makes those who choose to continue to believe false doctrine, accountable for the truth they reject. Personally, I think is very spiritually healthy to practice supporting one belief's by being able to show the verses that those beliefs are based on; and it trains the lambs to KNOW that their beliefs are biblical; so that they will be led astray, or tossed to and fro as much by every wind of doctrine. I can always agree to disagree, or just move to another thread, if it approaches the point that it is becoming nothing more than an argument.
2 Timothy 2:23-24 (NIV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
YET at the same time we certainly are commanded to:
Jude 1:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
ALSO we are to:
1 Peter 3:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but honor the Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.
2 Timothy 2:23-24 (NIV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.
YET at the same time we certainly are commanded to:
Jude 1:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
ALSO we are to:
1 Peter 3:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] but honor the Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.