Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[VCO]

You are seeing what you want to see .Look what the word says...But if anyone obeys his word,[SUP](J)[/SUP] love for God[SUP][a][/SUP] is truly made complete in them.

Love is made complete in obeying God. Simply put you have to obey to show you love...that is the word you can't change that. If you love him you will keep his commands
John 14:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Now, we are getting closer to agreeing.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands."

See it? Obedience validates that your Love for the LORD is real, and the LOVE comes first, producing obedience. THAT LOVE for the LORD is part of the new nature of the born again human spirit that was brought to ETERNAL LIFE by the Holy Spirit.

 

[svedbygrace]

seabass

In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.

That's false teaching and disregards the obedience of Christ which makes many Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Obedience of one is the conditioned, and that One was Christ !

 

[VCO]

what you need to see is ...do you know him?
.1John2
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Do you keep his word?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:
Do you abide in him...
[SUP]6 [/SUP]He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

No one is making anyone obey He is asking you to please obey

AND genuine LOVE for the LORD most certainly WILL PRODUCE that kind of loving obedience!

Now we found something we CAN AGREE ON.

Yes, that new born human spirit, learns to crawl before of it walks, and will stumble and fall a few times at first, but as it FEEDS on the Word of GOD, it will mature in both LOVE and Understanding. That spiritual Maturity will sooner or later manifest itself in our Christian walk via loving obedience to our LORD and Master, Jesus Christ.

Do we still agree?

 

[homwardbound]

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Then we can do the above, as Jesus commissioned His disciples to do, for we have the same Spirit and this is how Jesus walked.
What were you healed of sir?

Broken life, in a mess and per this world am in a mess and lunatic. Been threw the suffering enough that I consider this body dead and held alive by Father in the power of Father, through Christ's sacrifice for me and all the world

Healing of the flesh was the lead to show and know Christ as the Savior, sent by Daddy. to redeem us from our sins all, past, present and future, and by hid death he took away the sin of the world in and from Father's sight

there were Ten Lepers healed on his walk here in flesh, perfect flesh, born of the Virgin Mary. And I think one came back and he said now you are whole.
Looking at healed, this one then made whole, what about the other nine? So there is a healing in the physical, and trhere is the true healing in the Spirit of God

[h=3]John 10:10[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
A new heart has been given at the resurrection to be alive in Spirit and truth with my Lord Jesus Christ unto Father delivered as perfect

Colossians 1:22
in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Being made Holy, and presented to Father as this, does what, gives one the asking for the new life in the resurrected Christ.
Ask and you will receive, ask in Faith, for the Mercy provided through the cross

 

[homwardbound]

Why do you feel the need to change the meaning of the phrase. No where in this citation does it ever say that God is doing any work. Not one work.
God is going to hold YOU accountable. He definitely is NOT going to ask you if you want credit. He will ask what you did with all those gifts including the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit works in us, but not through us. You still have a free will and you can obey Satan just as well as obey Christ. That is why the onus is always on YOU, not God or the Holy Spirit.

You can believe as you want to or see to, just as I can and do, no harm to you or no foul to you from me.,My personal relationship is between God and me, thanks to Son, Jesus Christ. And you can do what you think is best. I am only interested in what father wants me to do, and not interested in fighting the flesh fight to be a look at me a goody two shoes.
And I am not saying that is you or anyone, for I stand in this fact below:

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Therefore I have nothing against you or anyone. I saw me once as self centered using God's laws as my Catalyst for others to follow me, and think they were following God, and me by me not actually aware of the deceitful flesh I was originally born with.
Hypocrites a big one in Christ's day, and there are still those amongst the believers today, to trip us up from Faith (belief) in this fact statement from Christ "it is finished" and then gave up the Ghost.

What was and is finished?

 

[homwardbound]

Others have stated this before as well. But none of these discussions is actually about what one believes. It is about what scripture means.
The reason for that is that your personal experience does not dictate what scripture means or determines doctrine.
This is why I have also heard some say, well I don't think I will eve fall away. That may well be true for that person, but unfortunately your experience does not dictate that of others. Unfortunately more believers have probably fallen from grace than will recieve the promise at the end.

The concern right here right now Cassian is you in this post you just stated. One is to worry about there own salvation and work it out to come to see it is all God and none of self, even though ones flesh body is used to do what Father wants done

Did Christ actually do the works or Father through him by him listening to Father's instructions, via the Holy Spirit of truth?
And you say we are to do the works, and I say no, Father through us does them, the same as Christ did

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

He walked by Faith, and told others it is there Faith that healed them and saved them. Faith in what is now the ?
Christ Jesus

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And by this Faith one does the works Fathers says through the inplanted Holy man of the heart, the Holy Spirit of truth

 

[homwardbound]

Apostasy and departing from the faith is not what you think it is and you do not have a good understanding about the promises of God that every believer has been given no matter what level of growth or maturity they have. If you look at all those men and women of faith and what took place in their lives and you come to (Heb 11:29) and find out that they never received the promise. Why was Rahab in this chapter mentioned as Rahab the harlot who never perished with those who believed not? There is no other Rahab specifically mentioned in scripture having to do with a person so the reference to her as 'harlot' was not made to identify her separate from other Rahabs. You will not find a reference to her without the tag or label 'harlot' attached to her name. I wonder why the Holy Spirit made it so in the scriptures both in the Old and New testaments? You have a Bible, read what it says about Rahab the harlot!

Agreed and so maybe we need to go:

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless

Was Rahab considered guiltless? What healed her, her work, or her work by her Faith and did what was told to do by Father, hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wondering what comes first the Chicken or the egg? Faith or works?

 

[homwardbound]

I can only speak for myself, and it was an addiction to sin. My wife was healed in answer to prayer of a 20 year addiction to pain pills, with NO WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS.

He rose people from the dead, how can we do greater than that?

He rose them physically from the dead, but they died again, and when we lead a person to genuinely receive Christ as LORD, we in a real sense have led him to spiritual life that is ETERNAL, thus it is greater.

Thank you Brother it is not about "us". It is about God and what God has done for us, to pass out to others as newspaper boys and not editors; straining out gnats and swallowing camels as the religious leaders did during the time of Christ's physical walk here on earth, and were hypocrites, as in wanting to be the center of everyone's attention, An attitude od I am right, you are wrong, I am good or better than you, you are not and need to get it together or else attitudes.

God the Father as Christ said is the only one good, And I say Christ is the only one good that ever lived on this earth in the flesh, So Father and Son are one in Spirit and truth. Raised in the Spirit and justified in Spirit for us to be the same born again in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ you all, is this truth or a lie

 

[homwardbound]

Did you not read the verse obedience produces love for God,,,But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected.
NIV...[SUP]5 [/SUP]But if anyone obeys his word,[SUP](J)[/SUP] love for God[SUP][a][/SUP] is truly made complete in them.
Stay with me don't drift.Now to show we love God we must love the brethren
1 John 3:15-17

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Anyone who hates a brother or sister[SUP](A)[/SUP] is a murderer,[SUP](B)[/SUP] and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.[SUP](C)[/SUP]

[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.[SUP](D)[/SUP] And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.[SUP](E)[/SUP] [SUP]17[/SUP]If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them,[SUP](F)[/SUP] how can the love of God be in that person?[SUP](G)[/SUP]

No man can truly love without first seeing the Love of God through Son first:
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

We are the creation not the creators
Creation responds to the creator
Not the creator respond to the creation
God is not going to respond to me, if God does that would be then by my works make me the creator of God
As is what religion is in a nutshell
What I must do to get God to respond to me, is arrogance to be god over God.

I am God's creation, thank you very much, so I respond to this love from God through Son Christ in thanksgiving and praise
Being a responder, not an initiator
Thanks

 

[homwardbound]

, this will date me, but should I call you Walter Brennan or just Will Sonnet? LOL

That would be from the show "the guns of will sonnet" Yep, and I today see it as the sword of the Spirit
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

No brag, (flesh does that) Fact, (God does that) and came to earth to redeem us, we are by Son reconciled, forgiven, redeemed, made right to God by son. Col 1:22
So all that is left is to beleive and be one with God as Son (Jesus Christ) showed so well in walking by Faith alone to Father in the power of the Holy Spirit.
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

And this is the same for all that do beleive, Father will and does grow us up to maturity, as if one asks in Hebrews 5:11-6:9
One might grow up and get off the milk and eat some enlightening meat that passes all mankind's understanding. for it is Spiritually breathed
Thanks Brother

 

[homwardbound]

My beliefs are all based on what Scripture means.

So then scripture is to set one free right? So if you are in bondage then you are not free and might need to rethink your scripture, that you think you understand, if you are in bondage then you are not free

John 8:32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[homwardbound]

My beliefs are all based on what Scripture means.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

 

[homwardbound]

The meaning of my statement is just the other way around.
What scripture means is what you believe. Even in your case it is incorrect. In other words my original statement, your experience does not make what scripture means.

So you do not experience, you have no relationship with God personally. You are trying to obey righteously and can't, thinking you must obey or else? do you think God to be a tyrant

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Are you wasted away, trying so hard to obey? Can't you see you can't, not perfectly ever, and that is why Christ came to take that away form you to have a new life in Christ via the Spirit of Father, to walk in love

 

[Cassian]

You can believe as you want to or see to, just as I can and do, no harm to you or no foul to you from me.,My personal relationship is between God and me, thanks to Son, Jesus Christ. And you can do what you think is best. I am only interested in what father wants me to do, and not interested in fighting the flesh fight to be a look at me a goody two shoes.
And I am not saying that is you or anyone, for I stand in this fact below:

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Therefore I have nothing against you or anyone. I saw me once as self centered using God's laws as my Catalyst for others to follow me, and think they were following God, and me by me not actually aware of the deceitful flesh I was originally born with.
Hypocrites a big one in Christ's day, and there are still those amongst the believers today, to trip us up from Faith (belief) in this fact statement from Christ "it is finished" and then gave up the Ghost.

What was and is finished?

Your comments are completely irrelevant to the text and my own comments. Either you don't understand the text, or you don't want to comment on it as to its meaning.

 

[homwardbound]

Your assessment is why you have understood it incorrectly. Lets put it in the time frame of these peoples lives.
For this example lets make it 10 people and they all entered Christ, believed, were baptised at the same time. Now the text says for our example 5 remained faithful doing the works that are mentioned, They loved the Lord, they really knew Him and believed to the end.
The other 5 also loved the Lord, really knew Him for many years possibly, but they did not remain faithful, no longer loved the Lord. Notice how similiar this is to the parable of the 10 virgines, 5 became foolish and assumed they knew when Christ would come and took Him for granted, and did not remain faithful to the end.
Your explanation, not only is not scriptural, but it is not anywhere near reality.
Doing the works of righteousness that all were doing the same says NOTHING about a so-called difference between what you call saved knowledge and head knowledge. It is a nice rationalization to fit your incorrect understanding of scripture.

God is the only one Faithful, man is not, and man stays faithful as the result of belief and thanking God trusting God to do what we can't in us since we can't in unredeemed flesh
God has not redeemed the flesh carnal nature, rather he came to kill and then after the death bring new life in Spirit and truth
There are a lot of dead corpses running around trying to do right, when dead can't. The flesh is death, and the Spirit is life

 

[homwardbound]

Your comments are completely irrelevant to the text and my own comments. Either you don't understand the text, or you don't want to comment on it as to its meaning.

Truly, i have no need for I trust god to do the teaching to set us free if we believe with a contrite heart to get the free gift of the new heart and works follow. no need to tell the right hand what the left hand does
Love you Cassisan

 

[homwardbound]

Your comments are completely irrelevant to the text and my own comments. Either you don't understand the text, or you don't want to comment on it as to its meaning.

Are works the by-product of Faith in Christ's finished works for you?
Or is your Faith in Christ produced by your works, Who gives Faith? Who gives works?

 

[newbirth]

Now, we are getting closer to agreeing.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands."

See it? Obedience validates that your Love for the LORD is real, and the LOVE comes first, producing obedience. THAT LOVE for the LORD is part of the new nature of the born again human spirit that was brought to ETERNAL LIFE by the Holy Spirit.

What is love? Can you love God before you know him? God is a God of order you change thing to the way you want it this is how the scripture says it works
2 Peter 1
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Those in red are the order of things you cant change the order charity is last you know what charity is ...faith comes first but only after and only after going through this process can we talk about love. The blue is for who miss the mark.
How can one do these things but by being obedient to the word?
And for those who think they already have it there is a big word in verse 4 ( might)

Christ disciples were obedient to him and had been taught these things now he is saying to them if you love me,you will/shall (versions don't matter) keep my commands.

 

[Cassian]

The concern right here right now Cassian is you in this post you just stated. One is to worry about there own salvation and work it out to come to see it is all God and none of self, even though ones flesh body is used to do what Father wants done

Did Christ actually do the works or Father through him by him listening to Father's instructions, via the Holy Spirit of truth?
And you say we are to do the works, and I say no, Father through us does them, the same as Christ did

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

He walked by Faith, and told others it is there Faith that healed them and saved them. Faith in what is now the ?
Christ Jesus

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And by this Faith one does the works Fathers says through the inplanted Holy man of the heart, the Holy Spirit of truth

You are actually contradictory because you are trying to avoid what scripture states, but then eventually you state it correctly.
It is man that does the works. God or the Holy Spirit DOES NOT DO THE WORKS. The Father DID NOT DO THE WORKS through Christ. Christ WAS NOT A PASSIVE object. Just as man is NOT a passive object. The Holy Spirit works IN man for Man to do the works according to God's will.

 

[newbirth]

No man can truly love without first seeing the Love of God through Son first:
1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Do you know what love is besides a word you just like to use?

We are the creation not the creators
Creation responds to the creator
Not the creator respond to the creation
God is not going to respond to me, if God does that would be then by my works make me the creator of God
As is what religion is in a nutshell
What I must do to get God to respond to me, is arrogance to be god over God.

What is your response to God?thanks and praise?
Matt 25
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I am God's creation, thank you very much, so I respond to this love from God through Son Christ in thanksgiving and praise
Being a responder, not an initiator
Thanks

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.