Refuting Roman Catholicism

[Elin]

I think you need to see, Rom 4: 5. Rom 5: 1. Eph 2: 8--9 Titus 3: 5., No mention of the law.

"Law" is not mentioned in every phrase referring to the law.

 

[Elin]

St.Paul never said faith alone.
The only scriptural writer who use the words
"faith alone" was St. James.

So is James' "faith alone" related to Paul's "by faith, not by works" in any way?

Sure would like your response on this.

 

[Elin]

if faith is an act, then faith is a work. You just destroyed any argument you had.

Catholic philosophy is precise in its distinctions.
It does not blur disposition with acts which flow from the disposition.

In the NT, "works" are acts of the law, not all actions.

P.S.

Faith is a disposition, from which flows acts of obedience.

It is the disposition that saves, not the acts which then follow and flow from the disposition.

The acts which follow and flow from the disposition are evidence that one truly has the disposition of faith

 

[ThomistColin]

So is James' "faith alone" related to Paul's "by faith, not by works" in any way?

Sure would like your response on this.

This is answered when we see that Paul said not by works lest any man should boast. I take this as meaning works cannot save us, but they can damn us. Also, Paul said not by works of the law, a unique phrase, that must be examined in the time of the writing. The Dead Sea Scrolls have a scroll called On The Works of the Law. It's about the liturgical rites of Judaism. So Paul is speaking here of the fact that Judaism is no longer a saving faith.

 

[ThomistColin]

Faith plus works for salvation is seen as this. The Grace of God is His giving us faith, hope, and charity. This is the saving power. The works must come, but what we mean by works is the obedience to God's will. Should we deny His will in our lives, we are rejecting God and His will, this creates a separation between God and us, by our doing not by His. This damns us, and it is these acts that Holy Mother Church defines as mortal sin.

 

[Kerim]

Hi Elin,

It seems you like seeing God (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost) as a mystery that has nothing in common in our life... other than wrath I guess

For instance, don't you know also that Muslims believe their Mohammad is the Comforter promised by Jesus?

So let me ask you a precise question:
Do you believe it is possible for two independent beings (or persons, if you like) be unified to the point they look as having one will and one power towards any outsider?

If you do, please tell me how this could be possible to happen?

If you don't, I wonder how you could understand (Matthew 19:6... Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh) while it is hard for you to get it for souls too.

On the other hand, please tell me to which Spirit Jesus is referring when he says:
(John 3:6)
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit".
Is it the Father? Is it Jesus? Or he referred simply to the Holy Spirit

Anyway, the Comforter (a Spirit or Person, you choose) is in me since long. Thank to Him (in Arabic there is no 'it', only 'he' and 'she') I forgot how a person may feel any sort of fear. Right now (while I am writing, it is around 11:30 PM) foreign long dark beards, as of Bin Laden, are launching mortars and heavy bombs over the houses where I live (in a small apartment on the roof). In fact, Obama (actually his bosses who hired him for presidency twice) gave me the chance to verify on the ground that Jesus is indeed the All-Knowledge Living Son of God when he says:
(Matthew 16:18)
"That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

It is sad that Obama is deceiving the world since March 2011 and attacks Jesus Land, Syria, by presenting the CIA foreign human-like robots, dressed terrorist Muslims (Al-Qaeda), as rebels looking for freedom and democracy.
So far, more than 350,000 well-armed non-Syrian jihadists (now 50,000 of them are surrounding my city Aleppo, most of them from Chechnya and Turkey) were moved into Syria from more than 40 countries (lately even from America, Britain, France and Germany for a few). And at the north of Syria Obama's rebels of Allah are crucifying some Christian Syrians exactly as Jews did to Jesus.

So the world will witness if Obama WILL SUCCEED, OR NOT, in replacing the Holy Spirit in Syria with Al-Sharia of Al-Qaeda (as the one imposed in Saudi Arabia which is a very close ally to the democratic US System, so-called Christian). Lately, Obama promised Al-Qaeda jihadists who are attacking Syrians for more than 3 years (while calling them good rebels) that America and the free world will keep standing with them (see H. Clinton the J. Kerry) by providing them with more and more advanced weapons till their Allah (of Saudi Arabia) reigns over Syria. I bet that Obama never heard of Jesus when he (Obama) accepted opening the gates of hell against His Land, Syria, imitating Bush who already opened these gates against the Iraqi people 10 years ago.

I am sorry for writing what is happening right now around me. Every few minutes, I was hearing the explosion of a missile or heavy mortar hitting a nearby house or street... I mean maybe this will be my last post unless God doesn't want me to die tonight

... For instance, it is now midnight (12:27 AM) and in the last 20 minutes I didn't here any explosion... Is it over for tonight? I will tell you if I will wake up tomorrow.

In Jesus Peace,
Kerim

 

[Vernon]

Is it not by grace alone? Both faith and works by the grace of God, not our works or our faith, but the work and faith of God the Son, Jesus Christ, when we become one with Christ we enter into his faith and works, certainly we can boast of nothing we have done to be saved. Are we to deny others salvation who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Even to those who believe in his name.

Christ be with you always.

 

[Elin]

So is James' "faith alone" related to Paul's "by faith, not by works" in any way?

This is answered when we see that Paul said not by works lest any man should boast. I take this as meaning
works cannot save us, but they can damn us.

I'm not sure how works can damn us, would you explain if you can?

Also, Paul said not by works of the law, a unique phrase,

Of course Paul has several unique phrases in the NT--spiritual body, old and new man, natural man, etc.

However, let me point out that everywhere in the NT, grace through faith for salvation (Eph 2:8-9)
is contrasted to law keeping for salvation (Gal 3:10); e.g.,
Ro 3:28, 4:15, 6:15, 7;6, 8:1-4, 9:31; Gal 2:16, 3:10, 11, 5:4; Php 3:9, etc.

I would posit that examination of the NT shows the meaning of Ro 3:20, 28 to be personal acts of obedience to the law.

that must be examined in the time of the writing.
The Dead Sea Scrolls have a scroll called On The Works of the Law. It's about the liturgical rites of Judaism. So
Paul is speaking here of the fact that Judaism is no longer a saving faith.

Well, a couple of interesting things here.

1) The Dead Sea Scrolls are not authoritative (canonized) for the Church.
So it's probably better not to assume they reflect Paul's meaning in Ro 3:20, 28.

2) The liturgical rites of Judaism--sacrifices, purifications, food laws, etc.--were the OT means for reconciliation with God by covering of sin (Ro 4:7).

However, the NT reveals it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to remit (take away) sin (Heb 10:4).

That is done only by faith in the blood of Christ (Ro 3:25).

So yes, Judaism is no longer the faith by which sinners are reconciled to God.
But the liturgical rites are not the works/deeds of the law to which Paul is referring in Ro 3:20, 28, as is seen in the Scriptures in my first response, above.

By "works/deeds of the law," Paul is referring to obedience to the law as the means of righteousness before God,
and he is clear that righteousness is a free gift from God (Ro 5:17), credited to us by faith in Jesus Christ (Ro 5:19), and not the result of "works/deeds of the law."

We are saved from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on our sin by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9).

And James' point is that it's not saving faith if obedience is not the result of it,
it is only counterfeit (dead) faithm which does not save.

Paul and James are not in disagreement, they're just making different points about saving faith.

 

[ThomistColin]

I'm not sure how works can damn us, would you explain if you can?


Of course Paul has several unique phrases in the NT--spiritual body, old and new man, natural man, etc.

However, let me point out that everywhere in the NT, grace through faith for salvation (Eph 2:8-9)
is contrasted to law keeping for salvation (Gal 3:10); e.g.,
Ro 3:28, 4:15, 6:15, 7;6, 8:1-4, 9:31; Gal 2:16, 3:10, 11, 5:4; Php 3:9, etc.

I would posit that examination of the NT shows the meaning of Ro 3:20, 28 to be personal acts of obedience to the law.


Well, a couple of interesting things here.

1) The Dead Sea Scrolls are not authoritative (canonized) for the Church.
So it's probably better not to assume they reflect Paul's meaning in Ro 3:20, 28.

2) The liturgical rites of Judaism--sacrifices, purifications, food laws, etc.--were the OT means for reconciliation with God by covering of sin (Ro 4:7).

However, the NT reveals it was impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to remit (take away) sin (Heb 10:4).

That is done only by faith in the blood of Christ (Ro 3:25).

So yes, Judaism is no longer the faith by which sinners are reconciled to God.
But the liturgical rites are not the works/deeds of the law to which Paul is referring in Ro 3:20, 28, as is seen in the Scriptures in my first response, above.

By "works/deeds of the law," Paul is referring to obedience to the law as the means of righteousness before God,
and he is clear that righteousness is a free gift from God (Ro 5:17), credited to us by faith in Jesus Christ (Ro 5:19), and not the result of "works/deeds of the law."

We are saved from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on our sin by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9).

And James' point is that it's not saving faith if obedience is not the result of it,
it is only counterfeit (dead) faithm which does not save.

Paul and James are not in disagreement, they're just making different points about saving faith.

Historically and academically there must be a correlation between the Dead Sea Scrolls and Paul since they are the only two places in the entire historical record of the 1st centuries BC and AD that use the phrase Works of the Law.

Throughout the Epistles of Paul, he used qualifying phrases, such as using the word if. This shows that salvation is conditional. Also, when Jesus spoke about Zaccheus and salvation, it was only after Zaccheus' confession and promise of penance. Our actions can damn us by removing ourselves from God's will. If I say to God that I want to do things my way, I am rejecting Him and placing myself and my will above Him. This is the same action of Satan and his comrades. The glory is that as long as I have breath in this life, I can say I'm sorry and repent. But if I die with that separation, I have chosen in my final moments that above all, I wish to be the god of my life. This has only one consequence, that God in His infinite love and mercy will acquiesce to my will and cast me into a place where God will never interfere again. That is the Lake of Fire. This is why the final judgment is about deeds and works. Because if I worship, believe, and love the Lord, then I must strive to be obedient. If I fall from that path, and continue without repentance, then I am the one condemning me, not God. God does not cast us out of His presence for mortal sin, it is us who seek to leave His presence. This is how works can damn us. We have a choice, take the gift of eternal life and strive to be obedient or to choose our own road which leads the Hell and the Lake of Fire and eternal torment in the second death.

 

[Elin]

Faith plus works for salvation is seen as this.
1) The Grace of God is His giving us faith, hope, and charity. This is the saving power.
2) The works must come, but what we mean by works is the obedience to God's will. Should we deny His will in our lives, we are rejecting God and His will, this creates a separation between God and us, by our doing not by His.
3) This damns us, and it is these acts that Holy Mother Church defines as mortal sin.

Let me suggest an understanding of these facts which I see as more in accord with the NT.
1) The saving power is not given to us to use (Eph 2:8-9).
It's God's power only, by which he actually saves all those whom he sovereignly gives the free gift of true faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1: Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) in his Son.

2) Those who do not have the works of saving faith in their lives, who disobey the will of God, were never actually saved in the first place.
They were never given the gift of faith from God, theirs was only a counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23) of their own, which does not save.

3) It is the unbelief (counterfeit faith), which causes rejection of God's will, that damns.

Those who been given the gift of true saving faith are then adopted as God's children, and are never damned, because God keeps his own from fatally (permanently) rejecting his will (Jn 6:37, 65; Php 1:6, 2:13; Heb 10:14; 1Pe 1:3-5).

This is what I see presented in the NT.

< If you have questions about Heb 6:4-6, etc. I will be happy to address them in agreement with the rest of the NT. >

 

[ThomistColin]

Let me suggest an understanding of these facts which I see as more in accord with the NT.
1) The saving power is not given to us to use (Eph 2:8-9).
It's God's power only, by which he actually saves all those whom he sovereignly gives the free gift of true faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1: Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) in his Son.

2) Those who do not have the works of saving faith in their lives, who disobey the will of God, were never actually saved in the first place.
They were never given the gift of faith from God, theirs was only a counterfeit faith (Mt 7:21-23) of their own, which does not save.

3) It is the unbelief (counterfeit faith), which causes rejection of God's will, that damns.

Those who been given the gift of true saving faith are then adopted as God's children, and are never damned, because God keeps his own from fatally (permanently) rejecting his will (Jn 6:37, 65; Php 1:6, 2:13; Heb 10:14; 1Pe 1:3-5).

This is what I see presented in the NT.

< If you have questions about Heb 6:4-6, etc. I will be happy to address them in agreement with the rest of the NT. >

That's simple OSAS response, but I can't make the leap in OSAS and free will. In the end, I think we shall see each other in Heaven, and we'll find the truth and realize how unimportant it truly is.compared to loving the Lover of our souls.

 

[Elin]

I think Jesus does present the Holy Spirit as being a divine person like Him or the Father. [/COLOR]Consider: I. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit issued from the Father, like himself (Jn 15:26); i.e., he is of the same divine nature as the Father and himself. II. Jesus also said the Holy Spirit was another comforter (counselor, advocate, helper), like himself (Jn 14:16-17, 25-26, 15:26, 16:7), all words denoting a person, and conveying thoughts of encouragement, support, assistance, care, and the shouldering of responsibility for another's welfare--all functions of persons. III. He also presents the Holy Spirit as having the attributes of God: omniscience - Jn 16:13; 1Co 2:10-11, sovereignty - Jn 3:8; 1Co 12:11, omnipotence - Mt 12:28; Ro 8:11, omnipresence - 1Co 3:16. IV. And then Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit with personal pronouns (meaning person). He refers to the Holy Spirit as "him" or "he" (Jn 16:7, 8). Then in Jn 16:13-14, the neuter (impersonal) noun "spirit" (Gr: peuma), against all the rules of grammar, is given a (personal) masculine pronoun ("he"), which denotes personhood of the Holy Spirit. Likewise, the NT gives attributes of personhood to the Holy Spirit: intelligence - Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:13; Lk 12:12; Ro 8:27, 1Co 2:12-13; 1Jn 2:20, 27, will - Ac 16:6-7; 1Co 12:11, affections - Eph 4:30, sinned against - Mt 12:31-32; Ac 5:3. The NT also shows the Holy Spirit performing actions of personhood, acting as a personal agent: counseling, teaching, guiding, convicting, comforting - Jn 14:16, 26, 15:26, 16:17, showing the future - Jn 16:13b; 1Tim 4:1; 1Pe 1:11; 2Pe 1:21, testifying - Jn 15:26; Ac 5:32; Ro 8:16; Heb 2:4, speaking - Ac 8:29, 10:19-20, 11:12, 13:2, 21:11, deciding - Ac 15:28, forbidding - Ac 16:7, searching into secrets - 1Co 2:10, appointing and sending out missionaries - Ac 13:4, 20:28, interceding - Ro 8:26-27, enabling - Ac 2:4; Ro 8:26, leading - Gal 5:18, generating Christ's body and soul - Mt 1:18. I find the testimony of the NT to be conclusive that the Holy Spirit is a person. V. And then the NT writers, as well as the OT writers, present the Holy Spirit as God: Ge 1:2; Job 33:4; Ps 104:30 - the Spirit of God is identified with God in creation. Isa 11:2 - the Spirit of God is called the Spirit of YHWH. Ac 28:25 - the Adonai of Isa 6:8-10 is the Holy Spirit. Ac 5:3-4 - lying to the person of the Holy Spirit is lying to God. 1Co 2:11-14 - the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God who is from God. Heb 3:9, 10:15 - attributes the words of YHWH in Ex 17:7 and Jer 31:33 to the Holy Spirit. Ac 28:25 - attributes the words of YHWH in Isa 6:9-10 to the Holy Spirit. So the NT presents the Holy Spirit is a divine person, and the third person of the Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Would you not agree that Jesus presents the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit bracketed together as the triune name of God: Mt 28:19 - "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Note that the NT in: 1Co 12:4-6 - uses all three interchangeably, 2Co 13:14 - links them in prayer for divine blessing. Do you not think the NT conclusively presents three distinct and separate co-equal persons in revealing the nature of God? This revelation is the heart of the Christian faith in God--three separate, distinct and co-equal persons in one God, the Son sent by the Father (Jn 5:23, 36, 43) and doing the will of the Father (Jn 4:34 5:23, 36, 43, 10:25, 12:49-50, 14:24, 17:4), and the Spirit sent by the Father (Jn 14:26) and the Son (Jn 15:26, 16:7) doing the will of the Father (Jn 14:26) and the Son (Jn 14:26, 16:7).

Hi Elin, It seems you like seeing God (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost) as a mystery that has nothing in common in our life... other than wrath I guess

First, let me point out that in my other post on the justice of God, I did not mention that those who believe in Jesus Christ are not under the justice of God, for Jesus on the cross satisfied God's justice on their sin for them. So because God is just (Ro 3:26) does not mean that those in Christ are subject to it. Now regarding my post above, don't you think, in light of the Scriptures I presented there, that it would be more accurate to say I like seeing the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the way they are presented in the word of God?

For instance, don't you know also that Muslims believe their Mohammad is the Comforter promised by Jesus?

So let me ask you a precise question: Do you believe it is possible for two independent beings (or persons, if you like) be unified to the point they look as having one will and one power towards any outsider?

All I can say, Kerim, is that I prefer the Biblical presentation of the Holy Spirit above over any other presentation or explanation. And that I do not give myself the authority, or the liberty, to alter it in any way, or to disbelieve it. I see myself as sitting under the Scriptures, not over them. Hope you make it through the night. Elin

 

[Elin]

To correct previous post.

 

[saved1975]

It is grace not faith. Faith God gives through His word. Grace is the gift that no man can deserve and no man can earn. Faith through the word is how we know about grace and that God has done what He has promised He would do.

Confusion enters when we do not keep grace and faith in their proper biblical order. Rome teaches that grace is meted out by rites and rituals even supernatural transmissions but Gods grace is not under mans control. You can obtain greater faith by additional study of Gods word but Gods grace is all sufficient because nothing is withheld when God gives of His marvelous grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The grace in on God's part, We are talking about what we have to do to be saved.
[Believe God], It's called faith.

 

[saved1975]

First off, James is talking about faith alone. He states we aren't saved by it.

Secondly, if faith is an act, then faith is a work. You just destroyed any argument you had.

James isn't talking about faith for salvation, Or works, You have to keep James in it's right context.

 

[Kerry]

Might as well be Buddhist as roman catholic, I meant it's all about what you do and what mother mary say's.

 

[saved1975]

Obviously you can't read. Faith alone are not words that St. Paul used.

So tell me what else Paul added in, Rom 4: 5, Rom 5: 1. Eph 2: 8--9. Titus 3: 5.

If not faith alone, What else is needed??.

 

[ThomistColin]

That is your interpretation as taught by the tradition of Protestantism.

 

[saved1975]

Saved1975, IF YOU had such a strong faith in Jesus Christ that you could actually, by that faith alone, move mountains would that kind of faith in Jesus Christ save you?

You are talking about two different kinds of faith.
[1]Everyone has the ability to believe what they hear, so when people hear the gospel, they can chose to believe it or not believe it, they can receive it or reject it.

[2]Then when one gets born again, They have the God given faith that can move mountains.

 

[saved1975]

"Law" is not mentioned in every phrase referring to the law.

I never said law was mentioned in those verses, Neither is works for salvation.