Refuting Roman Catholicism

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#81
Salvation is predicated upon the faith, i.e. absolute conviction, of obedience of the law which has been added.
"For it is not those who just hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13
Your verse does not prove your contention. Your verse says nothing about faith. In fact it is clear from context that this is hypothetical, the legal system for righteousness, which no one fulfills and which condemns all.

CONTEXT

2:1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things. 3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who will render to every man according to his works: 7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: 8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation, 9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek; 10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:

[the point is that this legal standard condemns all men]

11
for there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law; 13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: 14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; 15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); 16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.



17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God, 18 and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth; 21 thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples? 23 thou who gloriest in the law, through thy transgression of the law dishonorest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written. 25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision. 26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision? 27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh: 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. 3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God? 4 God forbid: yea, let God be found true, but every man a liar; as it is written,
That thou mightest be justified in thy words,
And mightest prevail when thou comest into judgment.


5 But if our unrighteousness commendeth the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who visiteth with wrath? (I speak after the manner of men.) 6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7 But if the truth of God through my lie abounded unto his glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 and why not (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), Let us do evil, that good may come? whose condemnation is just.


9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none that understandeth,
There is none that seeketh after God;
12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable;
There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre;
With their tongues they have used deceit:
The poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: 20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.


21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#82
There works of the law, and there are the catholic works, Then there is Faith works. [Or actions], Faith is an act.
Bartimaeus put works [Actions] to his faith when he cast away he garment, which was his licence to beg.

The ten lepers put actions to their faith by going to the priest.

Then there are the works of Jesus, That He said we would do.
Did you forget the dead works?

how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish unto God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? - Hebrews
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#83
dead works are you kidding me?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#84
ThomistColin said:
That's simple OSAS response, but I can't make the leap in OSAS and free will. In the end, I think we shall see each other in Heaven, and we'll find the truth and realize how unimportant it truly is.compared to loving the Lover of our souls.
Scripture presents God's sovereign actions in salvation not as violating man's "free will,"
but as freeing man (Jn 8:26) from his slavery to sin (Jn 8:34; Gal 3:22; Ro 11:32).
Slaves are not free.
The Bible does not teach the free will (moral power) of man.
The Bible teaches that man's free will (moral power) has been compromised
by the fall, and that his free will (moral power) is limited.

Fallen sinful unregenerate
man does not have the freedom of will (moral power) to love God,
or to live a sinless life, etc. (Ro 8:7).
He has the freedom (moral power) only to act according to his fallen disposition,
which is toward self in preference to God.

"Free will" (complete moral power) is a philosophical (Aristotle, Cicero) notion

asserted by the British monk, Pelagius (circa 400 AD), on the assumption that
man's responsibility for sin requires that man have "free will" (complete moral power).
But Biblically, this is not so.

Biblically, man is able to act voluntarily, without external constraint, only according to his disposition.
And Biblically his disposition is fallen and corrupt (Ro 8:7).
This compromised and limited free will is in philosophy called "free agency," not "free will."

So the Biblical notion of "free will" = the philosophical notion of "free agency."

The Bible does not teach Aristotle and Cicero's philosophical "free will" (complete moral power)
asserted by Pelagius.

And the Bible does teach man's responsibility for his sin even though
the freedom of his will (moral power) is compromised and limited by his fallen nature,
which cannot choose to love God, or to live a sinless life.

Hence, the necessity of rebirth (Jn 3:3, 5) by a sovereign saving act of God.
 
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Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#85
To correct previous post.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#86
.
The Biblical view of "free will" is explained well on another thread:

. . .all human beings make various choices in life. However, when it comes to making a decision for God, reformed theology affirms that no one seeks God or receives Christ on their own without being spiritually awakened by God and enabled to do so (Jn 6:65, 44). . .

Do people make choices? Of course, each and every day, and on many different levels. But when it comes to salvation in Christ, the Bible is clear that
each person is born in sin (Ps. 51:5), spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1), and morally incapable of coming to Christ by themselves (1 Cor. 2:14, Rom. 8:6-7).

Jesus made the explicit statement, “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65), which clearly showcases an inability in everyone to freely choose Christ unless granted by the Father (see also John 6:44). Once an unbeliever is spiritually called by God out of their darkness (2 Tim. 1:8-9) and their eyes are opened (John 9:39), they then willingly receive Jesus as Savior.

James White sums up the correct position well when he says: "Reformed Christians believe that men believe and choose. It is the order of events that is in dispute. Every Christian has chosen Christ, believed in Christ, embraced Christ, and even more, continues to do so. The question is not ‘must a person believe,’ but can a person believe while a slave to sin? Further, whose decision comes first: the decision of God to free the enslaved, dead sinner and give him the ability to believe, or the free-choice decision of the sinner that then makes him or her one of the elect?"


 
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Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#87
edit previous post
 
K

Kerim

Guest
#88
Catholicism is works based just like Islam and buddahiist
You forgot Judaism.


Jews are raised to fight, when necessary, God's enemies for the Promised Land.

Muslims may need to fight Allah's enemies for the Promised Virgins instead.

But a 'real' Christian has no enemies to judge, hate or even blame seriously. This is A WORK (by living the unconditional love towards all other) which is, in our daily life, the hardest one to do.


Anyway, please don't tell me that Jesus came to preach us another Pagan belief so that its believers could be saved by the magical power of some words and/or expressions.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#89
Kerim said:
All I can say, Kerim, is that I prefer the Biblical presentation of the Holy Spirit over any other presentation or explanation.

And that I do not give myself the authority, or the liberty, to alter it in any way, or to disbelieve it.

I see myself as sitting under the Scriptures, not over them.

Hope you make it through the night.
Elin
Kerim,

Is Christianity your only religion, or do you understand it according to another religion?

Elin
 
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K

Kerim

Guest
#90
Kerim,

Is Christianity your only religion, or do you understand it according to another religion?

Elin
I recall I answered your question on the thread "Is it wrong?".

Actually, since we understood Jesus teachings differently, we, practically speaking, cannot be seen as having the same religion, belief or culture.
On the other hand, since the today's Christianity, as you describe it, is leaded by the most powerful/rich men in the world and followed therefore by zillions of believers, even if Jesus happens to live among us now He won't be called Christian.
And I bet He would be crucified, in a modern way of course, in 3 days only... not 3 years... after he starts addressing the world (of course by a miracle, since telling the WHOLE truth is a taboo via the international formal media
).

You say I may have another religion.
Do you think a spiritual belief/knowledge of two persons only can make a religion?
To my knowledge, only Jesus says what I believe as being truths in my life (or the Truth of my life, if you like).
So would you please notify me, if you hear of any third person...
I personally couldn't have the chance to meet yet even one man who agrees with me on how I understood Jesus Christ.

Finally, I hope I am not doing anything wrong to anyone... by not believing in the magical power of some words to save myself (my soul).
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
#91
dont worry about any isms
God will take care of them with his
cata
clysms.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#92
I recall I answered your question on the thread "Is it wrong?".
No, you did not answer the question:

"Do you believe a religion other than Christianity?"

A simple "yes," or a simple "no," is sufficient.

If the answer is "yes," please state what that religion is.

Still waiting. . .
 
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K

Kerim

Guest
#93
No, you did not answer the question:

"Do you believe a religion other than Christianity?"

A simple "yes," or a simple "no," is sufficient.

If the answer is "yes," please state what that religion is.

Still waiting. . .
It happens that both answers, yes and no, are wrong in my case. :(

I believe Jesus Christ teachings ONLY... I cannot be clearer.

Now, you (with anyone else) are free calling me (or my belief) the way you like.
I already told you I don't belong to any formal group of any sort... Should I create a special name for my case?


For instance, this is not new to me. Jesus was crucified for being a great criminal threatening the existence of a whole nation. Am I better than Jesus? Of course, I am not.

For instance, let us imagine we can ask Jesus now if his teachings are perfect by themselves or not.
In your opinion, would Jesus say... yes or no?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#94
Elin said:
No, you did not answer the question:

"Do you believe a religion other than Christianity?"

A simple "yes," or a simple "no," is sufficient.

If the answer is "yes," please state what that religion is.

Still waiting. . .
It happens that both answers, yes and no, are wrong in my case.

I believe Jesus Christ teachings ONLY...
So, if it's incorrect that you don't believe in a religion other than Christianity,
then it's correct that you do believe something that you acknowledge is not Christianity.

And if it's incorrect that you do believe in a religion other than Christianity,
then it's correct that you believe in a bastardized Christianity, which is not Christianity.

The logical deductions of your statements above tell me
1) you do not belong to any formal group of any sort, and also that
2) you subscribe to your own bastardized Christianity.

And that means you are not a Christian.
 
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K

Kerim

Guest
#95
So, if it's incorrect that you don't believe in a religion other than Christianity,
then it's correct that you do believe something that you acknowledge is not Christianity.

And if it's incorrect that you do believe in a religion other than Christianity,
then it's correct that you believe in a bastardized Christianity, which is not Christianity.

The logical deductions of your statements above tell me
1) you do not belong to any formal group of any sort, and also that
2) you subscribe to your own bastardized Christianity.

And that means you are not a Christian.
From the thread "Is it wrong?":

I think your deduction is right, Elin.

To you, Jesus is also not 'Christian' (of the Christianity you are familiar
with):

(1)
Jesus didn't follow God's Law addressed to the kids of humanity (the ancient
Jews). In fact, in the name of the God's Justice of the Old Testament, He was
crucified as the greatest sinner threatening the existence of God's nation.
(Please correct me if this is wrong),

(2)
Jesus doesn't see, as today's Christianity should do, God (the One will and
Power of the Father and Him unified by the Holy Spirit) as a secret, when he
says "I and my Father are one".

(3)
Jesus didn't have the chance to also believe, as most today's Christians should
do, what some men, inspired by the Holy Spirit, have said after Him.

Sorry Elin, I can't leave Jesus to please you. :(
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#96
To you, Jesus is also not 'Christian' (of the Christianity you are familiar with)
Kerim, you will have to show according to the words of Jesus,
taken in their plain meaning of the Greek,
that he is of the form of "Christianity" which according to you, no one other than you holds.

Jesus' teachings are about salvation from the condemnation of God's wrath (Jn 3:18, 36) on one's guilt of sin.

Jesus' teachings are that it is only those who believe and trust in who he says he is:

the Son of God from heaven (Jn 3:13, 6:38, 42, 62)
sent by God (Jn 5:36-40, 10:36, 13:3, 16:28)
to die as a ransom (pay the price) for the sins of many (Mt 20:28, 26:28; Jn 10:11),
with power to forgive sin (Mt 9:2-6),
to speak for God (Jn 7:16, 8:25-28, 12:44-45, 49-50, 14:10; Lk 9:35, 10:16),
to judge all mankind (Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48; Mt 25:31-33),
as the exclusive way to God (Jn 14:6),
the
source of all truth and life (Jn 1:4, 5:25-26, 6:39-40),
the
decisive factor in the eternal destiny of every man (Jn 3;18-19, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:24-25), and
possessing all authority (power) in heaven and earth (Mt 26:64, 28:18; Lk 10:22; Jn 13:3, 13),

who
will die with their sin forgiven (Jn 8:24-26)
and
saved from God's condemnation on their guilt of sin at the final judgment (Jn 3:18, 36).

So, according to Jesus,
these are the things which you must believe and trust in (Mk 1:15).
Apart from believing and trusting in these things, one is not following Jesus' teachings.

Jesus came, not just to reveal God's truth, but most importantly to die
as a ransom from God's justice on the guilt of those who love, believe, trust and
obey him, and which ransom is applied only by saving faith (Jn 3:16, 18).

This is the Christianity spoken by Jesus, to which all those who are born again subscribe.
If one does not subscribe to all of them, Jesus says he is subject to God's condemnation (Jn 8:24-26).

It is not my intention to make you believe the Christianity spoken by Jesus.
My intention is only to show what Jesus himself states that his Christianity is.
 
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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#97
[h=3]In my opinion, by read this believe alone, one must refute the teaching of Catholic.

It is simple and easy to prove that it is the teaching of the devil.

This teaching degrading the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

Easy to go to heaven, just wearing a scapular. Rob the bank everyday as long as wear scapular,

guaranty not go to hell or purgatory.

Please tell me how to prove this teaching in line with the teaching of Chirt?



The Brown Scapular Saves You from Hell - The Fatima ...
[/h][h=3]www.fatimacrusader.com/cr37/cr37pg24.asp






The Ultimate Tragedy[/h]Hell is the most tragic dogma of our Catholic faith. If not for Jesus, who must have spoken about hell at least 15 times, I don't think we would believe such a reality as an eternal fire. To burn in hell a thousand years that will pass, to burn in hell a million years that would pass. But souls in hell, they will remain and remain and remain, billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of years. And little Lucia said it will not have yet begun. And it will hardly have begun ...
[TABLE="width: 300, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[h=3]Wonderful Promises[/h]If you believe in hell my friend, if you believe in hell, you will not pass a second day without reciting the Holy Rosary. If you believe in hell, you will pass not a single day without wearing your Brown Scapular, and in the morning when you wake up you will say, "Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, please save me today from deliberate sin, from mortal sin, from purgatory and from hell", and when you go to bed, before you jump in your bed you will kiss again the scapular and you will say, "Our Lady of Mt. Carmel preserve me from purgatory, from hell, mortal sins and venial sins."
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#98
In my opinion, by read this believe alone, one must refute the teaching of Catholic.

It is simple and easy to prove that it is the teaching of the devil.

This teaching degrading the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

Easy to go to heaven, just wearing a scapular. Rob the bank everyday as long as wear scapular,

guaranty not go to hell or purgatory.

Please tell me how to prove this teaching in line with the teaching of Chirt?



The Brown Scapular Saves You from Hell - The Fatima ...


www.fatimacrusader.com/cr37/cr37pg24.asp





The Ultimate Tragedy


Hell is the most tragic dogma of our Catholic faith. If not for Jesus, who must have spoken about hell at least 15 times, I don't think we would believe such a reality as an eternal fire. To burn in hell a thousand years that will pass, to burn in hell a million years that would pass. But souls in hell, they will remain and remain and remain, billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions and billions of years. And little Lucia said it will not have yet begun. And it will hardly have begun ...
[TABLE="width: 300, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Wonderful Promises

If you believe in hell my friend, if you believe in hell, you will not pass a second day without reciting the Holy Rosary. If you believe in hell, you will pass not a single day without wearing your Brown Scapular, and in the morning when you wake up you will say, "Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, please save me today from deliberate sin, from mortal sin, from purgatory and from hell", and when you go to bed, before you jump in your bed you will kiss again the scapular and you will say, "Our Lady of Mt. Carmel preserve me from purgatory, from hell, mortal sins and venial sins."
 
K

Kerim

Guest
#99
Kerim, you will have to show according to the words of Jesus,
taken in their plain meaning of the Greek,
that he is of the form of "Christianity" which according to you, no one other than you holds.

Jesus' teachings are about salvation from the condemnation of God's wrath (Jn 3:18, 36) on one's guilt of sin.

Jesus' teachings are that it is only those who believe and trust in who he says he is:

the Son of God from heaven (Jn 3:13, 6:38, 42, 62)
sent by God (Jn 5:36-40, 10:36, 13:3, 16:28)
to die as a ransom (pay the price) for the sins of many (Mt 20:28, 26:28; Jn 10:11),
with power to forgive sin (Mt 9:2-6),
to speak for God (Jn 7:16, 8:25-28, 12:44-45, 49-50, 14:10; Lk 9:35, 10:16),
to judge all mankind (Jn 5:22, 27, 8:26, 12:48; Mt 25:31-33),
as the exclusive way to God (Jn 14:6),
the
source of all truth and life (Jn 1:4, 5:25-26, 6:39-40),
the
decisive factor in the eternal destiny of every man (Jn 3;18-19, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 8:24-25), and
possessing all authority (power) in heaven and earth (Mt 26:64, 28:18; Lk 10:22; Jn 13:3, 13),

who
will die with their sin forgiven (Jn 8:24-26)
and
saved from God's condemnation on their guilt of sin at the final judgment (Jn 3:18, 36).

So, according to Jesus,
these are the things which you must believe and trust in (Mk 1:15).
Apart from believing and trusting in these things, one is not following Jesus' teachings.

Jesus came, not just to reveal God's truth, but most importantly to die
as a ransom from God's justice on the guilt of those who love, believe, trust and
obey him, and which ransom is applied only by saving faith (Jn 3:16, 18).

This is the Christianity spoken by Jesus, to which all those who are born again subscribe.
If one does not subscribe to all of them, Jesus says he is subject to God's condemnation (Jn 8:24-26).

It is not my intention to make you believe the Christianity spoken by Jesus.
My intention is only to show what Jesus himself states that his Christianity is.
Just curious... May I ask you why you duplicate your post in two threads?


Let me guess. Your reply is not addressed for me only since I need reading just one copy of it.
 
2

2Thewaters

Guest
Hell is a greek mythology to righten people into becoming catholic

There is no hell in the Bible
the original word was SHEOL and that means in hebrew GRAVE

the lake of fire is the punishment for the wicked, and that is a quick death from which they never rise again.

God is not a sadistic pervert

and you are not saved from Gods wrath which is offensive

you are saved from your OWN death penalty, sin.