so let me get this clear...Judas did not continue. Judas was not truly His disciple .....Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, so they who do not believe ,do not continue therefore, they are not truly his disciple because they did not believe ,but you have to believe to have ES so if you are not a disciple meaning you don't believe so you cannot have ES
It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
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Great post, Mailman. So while Judas was called a disciple, he was not truly a disciple; thus it appears to me that there is a regular use of the word and a profound use of the word.
Now there is a good saying implying the complete forgiveness of the believer's sins. The essential man is completely cleansed of sin. But still gets his feet dirty and needs what I call wood-shed forgiveness, to avoid chastening.
He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean;
Now there is a good saying implying the complete forgiveness of the believer's sins. The essential man is completely cleansed of sin. But still gets his feet dirty and needs what I call wood-shed forgiveness, to avoid chastening.
He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean;
K
Wasn't King Saul chosen and anointed by God. He started out on the right foot, but then looked elsewhere. Most certainly Adam was chosen by God and walked with Him in the cool of the day for who knows how long and He lost his way. Didn't Balaam have the word of God in his mouth, but chose money instead?
Abraham φίλος [friend] θεοῦ ἐκλήθη [was called]
Yes, I expect that Judas exercised the powers of an apostle. I am not sure what verse you refer to, but in both the KJV & ASV I think, the Lord Jesus called Judas "friend."
But that word is not the word for friend, but companion.
Ἑταῖρε = Hetaire = companion, comrade, not philos = friend.
The Judas kiss event:
And straightway he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, Rabbi; and kissed him. 50 And Jesus said to him, Comrade, do that for which thou art come.
Judas was a companion or comrade; Abe was a friend.
(No they weren't communists.)
Yes, I expect that Judas exercised the powers of an apostle. I am not sure what verse you refer to, but in both the KJV & ASV I think, the Lord Jesus called Judas "friend."
But that word is not the word for friend, but companion.
Ἑταῖρε = Hetaire = companion, comrade, not philos = friend.
The Judas kiss event:
And straightway he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, Rabbi; and kissed him. 50 And Jesus said to him, Comrade, do that for which thou art come.
Judas was a companion or comrade; Abe was a friend.
(No they weren't communists.)
you find it funny and trivial to grieve the holy spirit?
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
.[/QUOTE]
you choose to uphold a man's doctrine over God's word again
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On the doctrine of eternal security, one needs to focus on direct statement on the subject. Then you can figure out how stories fit in. King Saul, IMHO, was saved. It says the Lord changed him and gave him a different heart, though that may apply to being courageous and kinglike, instead of shy hiding in the baggage all the time. The Spirit left Saul and a demon or unclean spirit tormented him. In OT persons had no guarantee of the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The special filling power of the Spirit is not permanent in any age. What gives me hope for Saul is that Samuel, having come up from the dead (peculiar story), told Saul that tomorrow Saul would be with him. (Saul died next day.)
Adam chosen by God? I don't know where the Bible uses such language. Adam was created without sin as good. Adam was not chosen out from a group of unsaved persons and regenerated as we think of a person being chosen. He is no example of losing salvation, for he never had it at the start. He didn't need saving as he was not sinful.
Balaam is a peculiar story also, hardly something to build doctrine on by itself. I think it is debated whether or not he was originally a prophet of YHWH or an idolatrous prophet that the Lord used anyway. It looks like he dealt with hocus pocus, enchantments at the start, but quit. In the story the Word of God was even in a donkey's mouth, and the Lord gave prophecy through a real skunk called Caiaphas in the life of Christ.
Apparently Balaam could not utter false prophecy, but he wanted money offered for it. So he gave shrewd evil advice to Balak, telling him that if King Balak wanted Israel cursed, the way to do it was to send some women around for fornication. And it partly worked, though Balaam got himself killed in the process.
Adam chosen by God? I don't know where the Bible uses such language. Adam was created without sin as good. Adam was not chosen out from a group of unsaved persons and regenerated as we think of a person being chosen. He is no example of losing salvation, for he never had it at the start. He didn't need saving as he was not sinful.
Balaam is a peculiar story also, hardly something to build doctrine on by itself. I think it is debated whether or not he was originally a prophet of YHWH or an idolatrous prophet that the Lord used anyway. It looks like he dealt with hocus pocus, enchantments at the start, but quit. In the story the Word of God was even in a donkey's mouth, and the Lord gave prophecy through a real skunk called Caiaphas in the life of Christ.
Apparently Balaam could not utter false prophecy, but he wanted money offered for it. So he gave shrewd evil advice to Balak, telling him that if King Balak wanted Israel cursed, the way to do it was to send some women around for fornication. And it partly worked, though Balaam got himself killed in the process.
NewB, I uphold the Word of God over your words.
Believers are sealed, though they may grieve the Spirit. There is nothing funny or trivial about it.
As to unbelievers, I don't know if their falsehoods grieves the Spirit or not; but He does not like the Lord Jesus being denied to be the Savior nor persons claiming that they can save themselves by works in contradiction to His Word.
grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption
Believers are sealed, though they may grieve the Spirit. There is nothing funny or trivial about it.
As to unbelievers, I don't know if their falsehoods grieves the Spirit or not; but He does not like the Lord Jesus being denied to be the Savior nor persons claiming that they can save themselves by works in contradiction to His Word.
grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption
HEBREWS 10 IS NOT A PASSAGE AGAINST ETERNAL SECURITY.
Someone above quoted 10:26, but stopped without getting to the end of the chapter, last verse where the preceding is explained (similar to 6:9) explaining the preceding:
6 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. 28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. . . .
Cast not away therefore your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.
37 For yet a very little while,
He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.
38 But my righteous one shall live by faith:
And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who shrink back unto perdition; but of
them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Professed Christians may indeed shrink back, but the shrink-backers are of a different class from those who have saving faith.
Someone above quoted 10:26, but stopped without getting to the end of the chapter, last verse where the preceding is explained (similar to 6:9) explaining the preceding:
6 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. 28 A man that hath set at nought Moses’ law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. . . .
Cast not away therefore your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.
37 For yet a very little while,
He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.
38 But my righteous one shall live by faith:
And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who shrink back unto perdition; but of
them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Professed Christians may indeed shrink back, but the shrink-backers are of a different class from those who have saving faith.
K
For those who believe in OSAS how do you explain the scriptures in the bible that speak of ones who have fallen that were saved ?
Try to give an answer besides they were not truly saved to begin with, because even though that answer does apply to some that were mentioned in scripture it does not apply to all.
Try to give an answer besides they were not truly saved to begin with, because even though that answer does apply to some that were mentioned in scripture it does not apply to all.
Kenneth, would you mind quoting your verse and presenting your argument from the verse? Cover all bases for the meaning of "fall" if you find "fall." And prove that "fall" there means you don't end up in Heaven. And don't make any unnecessary interpretations. Make sure your verses say "were saved" or something completely equivalent.
Moreover, if you searched this thread you would already find where someone has already said the same objection and gotten an answer for it most likely.
But I suggest that rather you focus on verses directly on the subject of eternal security. James says of the Christian that in many ways we all stumble. And 1 John tells us we have Sin, and indicates the need of confessing. The Lord Jesus told Peter that you could be all clean, & yet need to wash feet.
Have you considered all the many, many verses posted for eternal security? If they don't convince you, I doubt that I can.
Moreover, if you searched this thread you would already find where someone has already said the same objection and gotten an answer for it most likely.
But I suggest that rather you focus on verses directly on the subject of eternal security. James says of the Christian that in many ways we all stumble. And 1 John tells us we have Sin, and indicates the need of confessing. The Lord Jesus told Peter that you could be all clean, & yet need to wash feet.
Have you considered all the many, many verses posted for eternal security? If they don't convince you, I doubt that I can.
Do you have to do the will of God to receive the promise? Is there a place between perdition and being saved?
Tell me atwood is it not true one had to be saved to shrink back to perdition and to prove the point he says but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul. It means some don't go on to the saving of the soul. Your Doctrine is full of holes God word is pure.
Tell me atwood is it not true one had to be saved to shrink back to perdition and to prove the point he says but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul. It means some don't go on to the saving of the soul. Your Doctrine is full of holes God word is pure.
We are not saving ourselves by works we are serving God if you don't want to serve God Now, how do you expect to serve him eternally? He saved you to serve him if you disobey there are consequences .
Romans 2:7-9
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
neither does he like lazy...do you know those who deny him in works are called disobedient and reprobate
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Do you know we are God's servant and servants do work...
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Romans 2:7-9
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
neither does he like lazy...do you know those who deny him in works are called disobedient and reprobate
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Do you know we are God's servant and servants do work...
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
K
I do consider and take all verses, but I do not take just one or a couple of scriptures to make a point. I use the whole bible to make that assertion. But if you want just one, here you go Matthew 24:13. It says you must endure to the end to be saved, and these are the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Nowhere will you find Jesus saying once you profess Him you are saved and stay saved no matter what you do. He says you have to confess Him for that salvation and persevere to the end to be saved.
Plus another tidbit that I have put in these type of threads before I showed a full out studied that showed how OSAS was not taught in the early church that was led by the Apostles. They taught the opposite, and the OSAS philosophy was not taught tell almost 500 years later by Calvin.
Nowhere will you find Jesus saying once you profess Him you are saved and stay saved no matter what you do. He says you have to confess Him for that salvation and persevere to the end to be saved.
Plus another tidbit that I have put in these type of threads before I showed a full out studied that showed how OSAS was not taught in the early church that was led by the Apostles. They taught the opposite, and the OSAS philosophy was not taught tell almost 500 years later by Calvin.
7 For yet a very little while,
He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.
38 But my righteous one shall live by faith:
And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who shrink back unto perdition;
but of them who have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Professed Christians may indeed shrink back, but the shrink-backers are of a different class from those who have saving faith.
Now you are classing Faith what next
I classed persons here into shrink-backers vs those who have saving faith. I did not classify faith here.
Questions questions, NewB. Make your assertions if you will. And prove them. But don't get too heavily invested into talking yourself out of eternal life.
Glad you endorse God's word are pure, NewB.
And if you endorse my doctrine as holy, you are mostly right, though I can't claim purity.
No, being a back-shrinker is contrasted with having faith unto the saving of the soul. The back-shrinkers lack saving faith. As in Heb 6, reading on a few verses solves the problem of interp.
But we are not of them who shrink back unto perdition; but of
them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.
38 But my righteous one shall live by faith:
And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who shrink back unto perdition;
but of them who have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Professed Christians may indeed shrink back, but the shrink-backers are of a different class from those who have saving faith.
Now you are classing Faith what next
I classed persons here into shrink-backers vs those who have saving faith. I did not classify faith here.
Questions questions, NewB. Make your assertions if you will. And prove them. But don't get too heavily invested into talking yourself out of eternal life.
Glad you endorse God's word are pure, NewB.
And if you endorse my doctrine as holy, you are mostly right, though I can't claim purity.
No, being a back-shrinker is contrasted with having faith unto the saving of the soul. The back-shrinkers lack saving faith. As in Heb 6, reading on a few verses solves the problem of interp.
But we are not of them who shrink back unto perdition; but of
them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Kenneth, would you mind quoting your verse and presenting your argument from the verse? Cover all bases for the meaning of "fall" if you find "fall." And prove that "fall" there means you don't end up in Heaven. And don't make any unnecessary interpretations. Make sure your verses say "were saved" or something completely equivalent.
Moreover, if you searched this thread you would already find where someone has already said the same objection and gotten an answer for it most likely.
But I suggest that rather you focus on verses directly on the subject of eternal security. James says of the Christian that in many ways we all stumble. And 1 John tells us we have Sin, and indicates the need of confessing. The Lord Jesus told Peter that you could be all clean, & yet need to wash feet.
Have you considered all the many, many verses posted for eternal security? If they don't convince you, I doubt that I can.
.
I have posted a long list of verses, Kenneth; have you meditated on them yet? Many years ago, I read through a Bible from cover to cover marking in pink all passages on salvation, even passages opponents of eternal security would dwell on. Have you done that?
Your reference is faulty. The word "must" is not there. The passage is about saints in the Tribulation who will be saved by Christ's 2nd coming from their persecutors if they endure to the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns. It is not about eternal life, but entering the Millennium.
However, by eternal security, it follows that all the saints do endure to the end because of the power and protection provided by the Lord.
Prove it or retract.
He says that he gives to his sheep eternal life and they shall never perish.
Your saying it proves nothing. No proof.
Utterly false. Eternal security is clearly taught by the apostles and I have quoted much scripture to prove it. Have you considered it?
[/quote] the OSAS philosophy was not taught tell almost 500 years later by Calvin.[/QUOTE]
Not only was eternal security taught by the apostles in the Bible, but in the so-called early Church fathers it is abundantly taught by those who advocated universalism, of which there are many, and I posted the data for this. And of course the abundant heresy in the so-called Church Fathers indicates that very quickly many visible church organizations became corrupted. Monarchal bishops arose (not in NT), men who apparently loved the pre-eminence, like Diotrephes of 3 John. And many of them were heretics. Was it not at one point Athanasius Contra Mundum? There were Arians and universalists, modalists, etc., men erring on the nature of God and the person/nature of the Lord Jesus.
As John says, there were many antichrists even when he wrote 1 JOhn. Paul says that all that were in Asia (Roman province of Asia) turned away from him. He had superapostle opponents at Corinth, legalizer-Judaists in Galatia. He even had to correct Peter in Gal 2. Proto-gnostics were around wrongly defining Christ (see Colossians).
Paul made this great collection for the Jerusalem Church and arrive with it, only to be told he needed to go and participate in some temple ritual by the leaders of the Jerusalem Church.
So-called "Church History" (or that select part of it preserved by the papists) is not normative for Christianity. The Word of God is.
Should I fill up the screen with verses again on eternal security or have you read what I posted?
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.