Is justification by faith alone?

[newbirth]

It is a work of God. He said it. He does not need to see our work to prove we have faith in him, he did the work. he knows if our faith was real or not. The works are for our benefit, so we can KNOW we have eternal life. [/B]




try to learn what faith is, and you will see how wrong you are.

if I am trusting (faith) in someone else completely. it is not a work. He gets the credit and the glory, not me.

If I trust in my own works. I am trusting in self. I get the credit for my works. thus I get the glory, not the other person.

you claim faith in christ is my work. because I can not boast of it or take credit for it. God gets ALL the credit and glory. that is why it is HIS WORK. Not mine.

So what does he mean when he says.......
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[BradC]

Faith and repentance are like heads and tails of the same coin. You can't have one without the other.
As we turn to Jesus (faith) we turn away from all else (repentance) ...that constitutes true faith and repentance.

As an unsaved person we are not normally looking for justification or even repentance, but under conviction what we are looking for is forgiveness for our sin and to understand the love that God has for us through Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross. Justification is something we learn and are taught as it pertains to our position and standing with God through Christ. Repentance is when our hearts are turned to receive the things that are freely given to us of God. This is when we learn to put off the old man and to put on Christ as the new man.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So what does he mean when he says.......
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

It is called becoming spiritual mature in Christ. And not remaining a babe in Christ.

 

[psychomom]

So what does he mean when he says.......
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

it's important to see what comes before:

1 Peter 1

To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also... (the reason being what GOD in CHRIST has done)

first, Peter gives The Gospel, without which the rest is meaningless.

yes, we obey the Gospel, by God's strength and power.

in peace,
ellie

 

[newbirth]

It is called becoming spiritual mature in Christ. And not remaining a babe in Christ.

be mature and deal with vs ten

 

[newbirth]

it's important to see what comes before:

1 Peter 1

To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Now for this very reason also... (the reason being what GOD in CHRIST has done)

first, Peter gives The Gospel, without which the rest is meaningless.

yes, we obey the Gospel, by God's strength and power.

in peace,
ellie

it is also important to see what the post was in response too

 

[eternally-gratefull]

be mature and deal with vs ten

lol. If I did not take vs 10 seriously. I would doubt my salvation was real. And I most likely would not have it.

It is a warning to be diligent to make sure your calling is real. and your not a fake. You know. Like the peole James spoke of..

 

[SeaBass]

So let me try to help you, I am not sure where these ideas are coming from, it almost sounds like you believe that God is dependant on man, and that is NO where found in scripture.
Irresistible grace


"Those who obtain the new birth do so, not because they wanted to obtain it, but because of the sovereign discriminating grace of God. That is, men are overcome by grace, not finally because their consciences were more tender or their faith more tenacious than that of other men. Rather, the willingness and ability to do God's will are evidence of God's own faithfulness to save men from the power and the penalty of sin, and since man is so corrupt that he will not decide and cannot be wooed to follow after God, sovereign efficacious grace is required to convert him. This is done by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit whereby a fallen man who has heard the gospel is made willing and necessarily turns to Christ in God-given faith." http://www.theopedia.com/Irresistible_grace

John 6:37–40


37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Titus 3:5
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

EPH 2:5 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

How does one get born again? he must die to self first.

God is not dependent on man for anything, but the course of action God takes is dependent upon what man chooses to do, Jonah 3:4,10 cf Jer 18:8,10. Therefore God does not choose for men which ones will be saved and which ones will not be saved.

------------------

Jn 6:45 explains how God draws men It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Men are drawn by the word of God when men are taught, hear and learn, then come to Christ of their own free will.

God draws, men come.

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Tts 3:5 speaks of one doing his own righteousness and not God's righteousness. No one can save himself, merit salvation by doing his own righteousness, one must do God's righteousness (commandments) to be saved.


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Eph 2:5 people go from a state of being dead in sins to being made alive with Christ. As Christ was buried and made alive from the grave, when one is water baptized, his old man of sin dies when he is buried in a watery grave and then one is resurrected/made alive being raised from that watery grave to walk in newness of life, Rom 6:3-5

 

[SeaBass]

Well Jesus states emphatically faith is the work of God.

So I will trust Jesus, Not you.. ok??

And by the way, Rom and james are in harmony.

Romans states faith saved not works.

James states lack of faith (dead faith) does not save.

thus they are in agreement, If faith is what saves, One must HAVE FAITH to be saved.

Jn 6:27-29 belief is a work of God in that God is the source, the genesis of that work He has given to man to do.

One might say the work of my employer is to make cars. So the employer is the genesis of that work the employer gives employees to do.

So God does not do the work of belief for He does not need to be saved. God gives that work to man and those that do the work of belief can be saved.


Rom 6 plainly shows that obedient works save/justify.


Since James and Paul harmonize;

Rom 5:2----------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24-----works>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies

And there just ONE way to be justified then faith includes works, faith is a work.

 

[SeaBass]

No he does not.

His work is the basis for our faith. Which is WHY it is a gift of God. If he did not do the work, He did not make the promise. There would be absolutely nothing to have faiht in, and our conversation would be meaningless.

The question is, What is your faith in?

Your works. if so your faith is in you (you are trusting your ability to do those works)

The work of God (you trust God to do the work for you)

there is no inbetween.

If faith is a gift of God meaning one can only have faith if God gives it to him then God is at fault for all those that are faithless. Yet God has no fault for faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17. Faith does not come to me as a gift God randomly decided to give me and withhold from others.

One's faith is in God but those that do not have an obedient faith cannot be saved by that dead workless faith.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

If one's faith does not 'move' him to obedient action then it is a dead, trustless faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

If one's faith does not "obey" then it is a faith that does not trust God.

 

[SeaBass]

It is a work of God. He said it. He does not need to see our work to prove we have faith in him, he did the work. he knows if our faith was real or not. The works are for our benefit, so we can KNOW we have eternal life. [/B]

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Mk 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

A dead faith only has no works If one has no works he cannot even prove he has faith.

try to learn what faith is, and you will see how wrong you are.

if I am trusting (faith) in someone else completely. it is not a work. He gets the credit and the glory, not me.

If I trust in my own works. I am trusting in self. I get the credit for my works. thus I get the glory, not the other person.

you claim faith in christ is my work. because I can not boast of it or take credit for it. God gets ALL the credit and glory. that is why it is HIS WORK. Not mine.

Until one sees faith as a work, he can never understand what true biblical faith is all about.

I have never said I trust in my own works to saved me, that is a staw-man.

 

[Roaster]

Being as no clear statement is made anywhere in the scripture saying that it is by 'faith alone', or, by 'faith only', don't you think it is better to believe the Bible writer, James?

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

We know that James had the Holy Spirit and correctly understood all Paul said. In fact, when we correctly understand Paul we find that there is total agreement between James and Paul and Peter and all of the Bible writers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If faith is a gift of God meaning one can only have faith if God gives it to him

You missed the whole point. WHy do you not remove your blinders so you can actually read what someone says. Then maybe you can see what they said, instead of assuming you know what they said, And make a fool of yourself by responding in a way which does not even come close to what they said, You missed the mark completely on this one my friend. If you read what I said, You would UNDERSTAND, this is NOT WHAT I SAID, or EVEN HINTED TO.

Would you like to try again?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Being as no clear statement is made anywhere in the scripture saying that it is by 'faith alone', or, by 'faith only', don't you think it is better to believe the Bible writer, James?

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

We know that james had the Holy Spirit and correctly understood all Paul said. In fact, when we correctly understand Paul we find that there is total agreement between James and Paul and Peter and all of the Bible writers.

what do you think faith minus works means? Is it not faith alone?

what do you think faith apart from works means? is it not alone?

Faith plus nothing equals what? The only thing left is faith by itself. Is not this faith alone?

What do you think it means we are saved by faith in Christ, and given eternal life by that faith? Is it not alone.

it does not have to say alone, to mean alone.

 

[SeaBass]

A dead man cant do anything! Scripture says we are dead in our tresspasses and sin!
A dead man cant turn to God and he cant repent, he's dead.

A physically dead man cannot do anything but a spiritually dead man can do some things. The eunuch was spiritually dead but was reading scripture trying to find out who the Messiah was the OT prophet wrote about. In Acts 2 Peter's listeners were lost, spiritually dead but able to be taught, hear, learn God's word (drawn by God, Jn 6:45) and come to Christ in obedience to v38.

 

[psychomom]

it is also important to see what the post was in response too

i think i did see that...

as i understand it, you believe faith to be a work...our work.
is this not correct?

 

[SeaBass]

Sea Perch you seem to be blind....FAITH, HOPE and LOVE are SPIRITUAL GIFTS not works.....!

Faith is a work, Mk 2:1-5; 1 Thess 1:3 and is dead if it is not a work.

 

[SeaBass]

Being as no clear statement is made anywhere in the scripture saying that it is by 'faith alone', or, by 'faith only', don't you think it is better to believe the Bible writer, James?

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

We know that James had the Holy Spirit and correctly understood all Paul said. In fact, when we correctly understand Paul we find that there is total agreement between James and Paul and Peter and all of the Bible writers.

James is saying faith without works do not save
Paul is saying works without faith cannot save

 

[Roaster]

what do you think faith minus works means? Is it not faith alone?

what do you think faith apart from works means? is it not alone?

Faith plus nothing equals what? The only thing left is faith by itself. Is not this faith alone?

What do you think it means we are saved by faith in Christ, and given eternal life by that faith? Is it not alone.

it does not have to say alone, to mean alone.

It would seem that way when we do not understand that the works being spoken of are not God's works for us but are works we by our own wisdom and zeal choose to do in an effort to please God.

It is impossible to please God apart from having the works he designed us to have. But those are his works which he foreordained that we should walk in them. His works for us are not new. He has always made those works known to us but man has been too busy doing it his own way to pay attention so as to know those works.

i will explain this a bit further in a second or two, for there is something else we must see.

 

[SeaBass]

You missed the whole point. WHy do you not remove your blinders so you can actually read what someone says. Then maybe you can see what they said, instead of assuming you know what they said, And make a fool of yourself by responding in a way which does not even come close to what they said, You missed the mark completely on this one my friend. If you read what I said, You would UNDERSTAND, this is NOT WHAT I SAID, or EVEN HINTED TO.

Would you like to try again?

....false teachers tend to get testy when their false teachings get exposed...