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B
Thaddaeus as I work to keep an open perspective, you are saying that the (taken up is the rapture) as I quote your thread "you can't resurrect the living, thus a taken up or rapture occurs before both resurrections for the bride is in heaven before the first resurrection occurs"
Threfore... I'd like to know, Is the taken up, or rapture, what happens to the woman in Matthew 24: 41. "Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left".. because it seems as if this woman experiences being taken up, or the rapture... Therefore.. please just let me know.. with a yes or a no.. Was this woman, who the bible says was taken and the other left, was she one whom experienced a taken up or rapture as you put it..
Threfore... I'd like to know, Is the taken up, or rapture, what happens to the woman in Matthew 24: 41. "Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken and the other left".. because it seems as if this woman experiences being taken up, or the rapture... Therefore.. please just let me know.. with a yes or a no.. Was this woman, who the bible says was taken and the other left, was she one whom experienced a taken up or rapture as you put it..
It still doesn't say if this adorned Bride is on the earth or raptured into heaven .
In fact, the very verse you quoted says:
Re 20:4
"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus"
So clearly, we have the Church still on the earth during the tribulation and during the time of the beast.
G
According to this scripture the christians will see the antichrist before they are gone or killed off.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 ¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
here's another scripture:
Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 ¶But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
So this disproves once and for all the pre- tribulation rapture stuff. (i hope)
W
All religions were created by the same brotherhood that have been controling humanity fo thousands of years, it is all just a way of conrtoling people ad telling hem what they can and cannot do, I do believe there is a supreme being, but jesus is not the way to salvation and evry religion in just metaphor hat people take literally, Stop worshiping false dieties, WAKE UP, and start living your lives the way you wan to, you don't need anyone to forgive you, you need to forgive yourselves and realise that the people in government and the royals throughout tyhe world are the bloodlines of evil (so called gods) from thousands of years ago that started in BABYLON and moved to EGYPT and then created the ROMAN EMPIRE and then became the aristocracy nd royaly of EUROPE, please BE FREE Aand whn i say free I mean FREEEEEEEEEEE, you are ALL KNOWING consciousness ALL THAT IS, ALL THAT HAS BEEN AND ALL THAT WILL EVER BE. Please don't let religion divide the world as it has done, WAKE UP and see that that is one of the many reasons it has been established to do!!!!!!! research online NEW WORLD ORDER ILLUMINATI ANNUNAKI NEPHILIM the information is there, you just have to break out of your (belief system) and stop being so ignorant to the signs that are clearly infront of you, GOOD LUCK, lots of love X
Exactly, that's what a plain and simple reading of the bible teaches. But I know the pre-tribbers explain this by saying that there are some converted on the earth during the tribulation (which cannot happen anyway if they also believe the Holy Spirit and the whole Church is removed, who is going to do the evangelism and the conviction/converting and regenerating? ) when they see the cars and buses and airplanes crash due to raptured drivers and all this chaos that will miraculously cause a certain proportion of hardened unregenerate sinners on the earth to want to pick up their bibles and find whatever 'how to be saved' tracts they can and become Christians (amazingly all without the Holy Spirit and true christian teachers/evangelists, as these are all raptured you see).
greatkraw said it
As for whoelse has said it in this particular thread, I am not going to re-read the whole thing, but as I have studed the pretrib doctrine extensively , as well as the mid and post trib positions, and what scripture actually says on the subject trust me the teaching that the holy Spirit is also removed at the pre trib rapture is a widely help belief by most pretribbers.
I don;t even believe that The Holy Spirit or the church is going to be removed before the trib, but pretribbers teach that the Holy spirit is holding back the true evil of humanity and when He is removed then humans will be unrestrained and become even more evil than they are now, opening the door for the anti christ to take over the earth. Remember this is what pretribbers teach not me, I do not buy this teaching for one second, none of it is biblical.
D
Okay and if it was directed towards him that is no problem. But he is not the voice for all "pretribbers". Just because you believe in the pretrib rapture as Jesus portrays in Matthew 24:40-41
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
I don't see any mention of the Holy Spirit being removed and just as Thaddaeus said there are people being saved in Rev 7.. I have a question for you Watchmen..
What is the purpose of the 144,000 men and the two witnesses?
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
I don't see any mention of the Holy Spirit being removed and just as Thaddaeus said there are people being saved in Rev 7.. I have a question for you Watchmen..
What is the purpose of the 144,000 men and the two witnesses?
Given that Christ never mentioned rapture, Paul never mentioned it either, it's not mentioned explicitly in REvelation either, only supposed to be there - a plain and simple reading of the scripture, each chapter, from beginning to end, coupled with the historical records we have of what early christians believed - there is no pre-trib rapture. The whole pre-trib rapture doctrine came by revelation and so it is really an issue of whether a person believes God did reveal new things to us in the last 200 years, or whether you think there is no new revelation and everything was sealed with the closing of the canon.
Also, MAtth 24 is not talking about any rapture. They are taken away because it is the second coming of Christ, not pre-trib rapture:
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Took them all away means killed. As they were taken away by the flood, i.e. drowned by the flood.
Also, MAtth 24 is not talking about any rapture. They are taken away because it is the second coming of Christ, not pre-trib rapture:
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Took them all away means killed. As they were taken away by the flood, i.e. drowned by the flood.
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