Free Gifts Come With Conditions....

[crossnote]

Someone gives you a free puppy. If you do not look after your free puppy, it will die/and or Animal Welfare will come and take if off you. Instead you will care for the puppy, love it, look after it, and watch it grow. Living a Christian life has nothing to do with earning the gift, but it has to do with living in the light of the gift and of the giver.

so God gives us the Holy Spirit and...here puppy, puppy; here puppy, puppy? I don't think so.

 

[SeaBass]

When men give gifts they always have conditions. God is not like men in that aspect. The gift changes all who receive it so the recipient does nothing but the gift accomplishes everything.

This is a very unique aspect of Christianity. Everything that must be done God did. The gift is soo unlike any other gift that it can only come from God.

His ways are greater than our ways. His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. What is man that Thou art mindful of him?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I started this thread giving several biblical examples of God's free grace being conditional.

God required the Hebrews to gather the manna to eat. The manna was a free gift from God but came with the conditions that the Hebrews gather it.

 

[crossnote]

....and if they did not do the work of gathering, the manna would just continue to lay upon the ground uneaten while they stayed hungry just looking at the manna lying on the ground.

As already explained. It was already given, taking a gift does not constitute a work...it constitutes receiving it.
I suppose you'd say when the Israelites were told to 'look' upon the brazen serpent which was provided as an antidote to their serpent bites, it constituted a 'work'?
I think it was Luther who said something like ''faith, is the empty hand of a beggar''. That's how we receive.

 

[SeaBass]

So are you going to finally admit that it does not equal faith alone? or keep trying to say it does?



Your still avoiding the fact they were god's children by the promise, not because anything they ever did. And the manna was given as a blessing, not to save their eternal souls.

Them being God's children by the promise is not the issue.

The issue is God gave them of His grace free manna to eat. That free gift came with the conditions the Hebrews do the work of gathering. So did their work in gathering mean they earned the manna? No. That work was simply a condition attached to the free gift of manna.

 

[SeaBass]

lol. Does not compute. your example does not fit. He gave it to everyone, it was their's whether they ate it or not. Going to do the work did not save them, it was their faith that saved them. Picking it up PROVED they had faith.

Again, God does not need you or I to work to KNOW we have faith now does he?? Is your God that powerless?

What does not compute is you tying to get them eating the manna without them first doing the work of having to gather it.

You have an impossible problem here to find a way around.

You keep saying "doing the work did not save them" but if they did not do the work of gathering would they would not have had the manna to eat? NO! for the manna would have just continued to lay upon the ground while they just sat and looked at it while remaining hungry.

 

[SeaBass]

Nope.

I had them have FAITH FIRST. then they did the work.

and actually God did the work. he gave it to them to begin with.

They could have had all the "faith only" in the world, but they were never going to have the manna to eat until they first did the work of gathering it.


God gave them the manna to eat, but they had to do the work in gathering it.

 

[SeaBass]

so God gives us the Holy Spirit and...here puppy, puppy; here puppy, puppy? I don't think so.

The point was the puppy was a free gift, does that mean the work you do in caring for the puppy, (feeding, watering etc) mean you earned the free puppy given you?

Or did you think the free puppy came with no conditional work, the puppy takes care of itself while you do nothing?

 

[SeaBass]

As already explained. It was already given, taking a gift does not constitute a work...it constitutes receiving it.
I suppose you'd say when the Israelites were told to 'look' upon the brazen serpent which was provided as an antidote to their serpent bites, it constituted a 'work'?
I think it was Luther who said something like ''faith, is the empty hand of a beggar''. That's how we receive.

It is understood God gave them the manna for free. What is being avoided by some here is that to eat the free manna required they first do the work of gathering it.

No work = no free gift....if they did not do the work of gathering, then they could not get the free gift.

Eternally-Gratfull is working on trying to find a way to where they can eat the manna without having to first do the work of gathering it.



Num 21:

If they do not look upon the brass serpent would they have been healed? No, so that gift of healing was conditional upon their going and looking upon the brass serpent.

 

[ThomistColin]

lol.. so we see how far one will go to make his belief appear true.

if a FREE gift comes with CONDITIONS. it is NOT FREE.

Manna is a sorry excuse.

1. God gave it to them while they were in sin and rebellion.
2. God gave it to them freely, just as he promised.

What they did with it was up to them, if they rejected it, they died in unbelief and rejection. if they took it, they acted on their faith, and their faith saved them.

No matter what, God still gave it to them.. which proves grace and mercy on a sinful and rebellious people

And if they became greedy the manna would wither.

 

[notuptome]

I started this thread giving several biblical examples of God's free grace being conditional.

God required the Hebrews to gather the manna to eat. The manna was a free gift from God but came with the conditions that the Hebrews gather it.

They were and always have been a stiff necked and rebellious people. They in fact earned the manna by picking it. Remember the curse of sin? You will eat your bread with sweat from the labor required to obtain it.

Grace may be seen as a type of manna but grace is far better. Jesus did it all. The entrance of Christ into my heart and the exit of my sin from my heart has change me so profoundly that I could never take any credit and I cannot conceive of ever going back to what I was before.

Those with hard hearts, stiff necks and a rebellious attitude will not receive Gods gift of eternal life by grace through faith. They are ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. Eating manna and never filled.

All the biblical examples of the world will not change a heart that refuses to know Christ. A heart that will not yield to the will of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ThomistColin]

As already explained. It was already given, taking a gift does not constitute a work...it constitutes receiving it.
I suppose you'd say when the Israelites were told to 'look' upon the brazen serpent which was provided as an antidote to their serpent bites, it constituted a 'work'?
I think it was Luther who said something like ''faith, is the empty hand of a beggar''. That's how we receive.

And God's conditions on how the manna was to be received? Seriously, there is no faith alone. You all keep harping on this belief even though Scripture clearly states that there is no faith alone. The response always is well that's not how he meant it. Accept that obedience is a condition of salvation for without obedience we are those who will cry Lord Lord and be cast out.

 

[apostolic862004]

No. If you just believe it, you would never take it, You have to actually trust the person who is giving it to you.

Your not working, because it is not your work which earns it, it was his work which earned it, and allowed him to offer it to you in the first place.

That's funny. So just faith wouldn't cause me to take it, but trust would huh? But I can both believe and trust you, and still never extend my hand to receive what you are giving me.

lol. Does not compute. your example does not fit. He gave it to everyone, it was their's whether they ate it or not. Going to do the work did not save them, it was their faith that saved them. Picking it up PROVED they had faith.

Ah, now this is very interesting my friend. You say that the manna was given and it belonged to them whether they ate it or not. And you are comparing this to salvation right? Because that IS what this thread is about. So what you are saying then is that salvation has been given to everyone whether they DO anything about it or not. Now you are proving my point. Salvation is AVAILABLE to whosoever will. But whether they DO anything about it is completely up to them. So yes, salvation has been given (made available) to all men. But all men are not saved because they must DO something about what has been given to them.

Following SeaBass's example, and your own statements, once the manna was on the ground, it was theirs. They did nothing to earn or deserve that. It was simply what God did for his chosen people. But guess what happened if they left the manna on the ground? It rotted.

Now lets imagine one of the Israelites, and for the sake of fun, (i hope you can take a joke) lets call him eternally-hungry.
Mr. Eternally-hungry wakes up in the morning and sees the manna on the ground and he gets excited and says' "God has provided for me and I didn't even have to work for it! I just woke up and the manna is here! Yes, I accept your free gift God!" And then Mr. Eternally-hungry walks back into his house shouting and dancing and praising God for giving him the free gift of manna. But 2 hours later his stomach is rumbling and he is still in there dancing and shouting, only a little slower now because of hunger pangs. But he will not go and pick up the manna because he doesn't have to work for it. Its right there on the ground and he doesn't have to do anything else because it is a gift that has been freely given to him!

We all know how absolutely ridiculous that is and yet this is exactly what James was talking about in James chapter 2. He even specifically asks the question CAN FAITH SAVE YOU? The obvious answer in its context is NO! You need to do something about your faith!

 

[notuptome]

And God's conditions on how the manna was to be received? Seriously, there is no faith alone. You all keep harping on this belief even though Scripture clearly states that there is no faith alone. The response always is well that's not how he meant it. Accept that obedience is a condition of salvation for without obedience we are those who will cry Lord Lord and be cast out.

Only those who profess what they do not possess will call Lord Lord and be denied by the Lord. I suspect they will be the most religious among men but they do not know the Lord and have not submitted to Gods righteousness. All pretense but no substance.

You speak of man's faith but what of the faith of Christ? Is that alone not sufficient? What can be added to what Christ has done?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[apostolic862004]

And also I would like to know how you guys explain James 2:24? He specifically said that we are justified by works and not faith alone. How do you explain that?

Hebrews 11 is all about faith, but it tells what people DID by their faith!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

....and if they did not do the work of gathering, the manna would just continue to lay upon the ground uneaten while they stayed hungry just looking at the manna lying on the ground.

yet they would still be called the called out children of God.

AMazing isn't it. True example of grace

 

[ThomistColin]

Only those who profess what they do not possess will call Lord Lord and be denied by the Lord. I suspect they will be the most religious among men but they do not know the Lord and have not submitted to Gods righteousness. All pretense but no substance.

You speak of man's faith but what of the faith of Christ? Is that alone not sufficient? What can be added to what Christ has done?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So if we don't submit, we are not saved. You just destroyed faith alone, and yet you're going to say I'm twisting your words. I'm not, examine them yourself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so God gives us the Holy Spirit and...here puppy, puppy; here puppy, puppy? I don't think so.

so true..lol

I think the issue is people do not realise what the gift really is, And they use human examples to try to explain it.

All human examples may help but not completely. The gift God offers is not something we can ever work for. So to use an example of something someone can go out and work to earn his own, would be a faulty example at best.

now when you use an example of offering something that no matter what, the person recieveing the gift could never get on his own. then we start to have a clear picture of the gift God offers us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As already explained. It was already given, taking a gift does not constitute a work...it constitutes receiving it.
I suppose you'd say when the Israelites were told to 'look' upon the brazen serpent which was provided as an antidote to their serpent bites, it constituted a 'work'?
I think it was Luther who said something like ''faith, is the empty hand of a beggar''. That's how we receive.

they can not see this aspect.

Here is a gift, do you want it.

Sure, then earn it by working to take it.

it does not make any sense.

 

[apostolic862004]

You speak of man's faith but what of the faith of Christ? Is that alone not sufficient? What can be added to what Christ has done?

This makes absolutely no sense at all. What are you saying? That Christ's faith in himself will save us? That not only is not biblical, it makes no sense.

 

[SeaBass]

They were and always have been a stiff necked and rebellious people. They in fact earned the manna by picking it. Remember the curse of sin? You will eat your bread with sweat from the labor required to obtain it.

Grace may be seen as a type of manna but grace is far better. Jesus did it all. The entrance of Christ into my heart and the exit of my sin from my heart has change me so profoundly that I could never take any credit and I cannot conceive of ever going back to what I was before.

Those with hard hearts, stiff necks and a rebellious attitude will not receive Gods gift of eternal life by grace through faith. They are ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. Eating manna and never filled.

All the biblical examples of the world will not change a heart that refuses to know Christ. A heart that will not yield to the will of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So the manna was not of God's grace? Did God owe them the manna?

Ex 16:15 And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, Itis manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the LORD hath given you to eat.

Psa 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.

Does this also mean Naaman's healing was of himself, he earned his healing and it too was not of grace?