Baptism Essential to Salvation

[Alligator]

No one was saved unytikl Christ died on the cross. The OT saints only had their sins covered and not removed and the reason why they were held captive by Satan. Jesus said I have come to preach the gospel to the poor and to take captive the captivity.

What was He talking about. He ws talkng about all the OT saint's that were held in paradise which was a part of hell.

anyway that's as deep as i'm going at this point. Jesus told the thief that today you will be with me in Paradise. BTW he was not baptized.

So you mean that no one's salvation was complete yet? Kerry, it is notable that your opinions post have no Bible proof attached.

What do you think of King David? Ps 23

Surely goodness & mercy shall follow me all of the days of my life,
And I shall dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

What do you think of Isaiah?
He was a man of unclean lips.
Do you think he lips were still unclean after the hot coal hit them?
Check out Isaiah 6.

Was Job a captive of satan or protected by a hedge from satan?
What about your Hall of Fame guys in Hebrews 11 ?
If Joshua didn't have sins removed, how could he have dwelt in the Tent of Meeting?
Could Moses have looked on the Lord face to face?

Hebrews 10:4English Standard Version (ESV)


4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.


That's right Atwood, have you ever read Hebrews 10:4? What do you think washes away our sins? It is the blood of Christ he shed for us. Obviously, until that blood was shed on the cross, we were still in our sins. Also, I see you keep accusing people of making things up. There is only one person I have found on this board that consistently does this and that would be YOU.

 

[apostolic862004]

I think to be baptized is very much a re-affirmation and deceleration of laying down the old life. And it is instructed that a believer should be baptized. I personally do not think anyone who comes to Christ should hesitate to be baptized. In my opinion churches should have a bath or a swimming pool ready for every single service, so that WHEN a person is saved in that service, he can go straight into baptism - but in today's day and time, you have to book it in advance at times.

Now taking this into account, should you give your life to God in a Sunday service, walk out into the parking lot and a tree falls on you killing you, does this mean you are not saved? NOT AT ALL

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
The scripture says here "he that believes and IS baptizes shall be saved" SO we should get baptized, but it says here too, that "he that believeth not shall be damned"

The second part is what I'm pressing on, it takes your belief and initial repentance, so if you happen to die before you baptize because you had no way of getting baptized you will not be damned because of your faith.

BUT - go get baptized, the word of God insists on it! Why argue the point, its an ACT of your faith!

ThePottersClay, it is human tendency to give and A for effort. But it is not God's tendancy. If he requires us to do three things, and we only do two, we failed. And God doesn't "fudge the requirements" for anybody. So John 3:5 says that if a man is not born of the WATER and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That requirement doesn't change for anyone

To address your scenario of someone repenting and believing and dying before they are baptized, Hebrews 11:6 tells us that God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. God is not going to allow that to happen to someone who is seriously repenting and making things right with him. God is not a liar, and his word says that he will reward those that diligently seek him. So if someone starts the process of being saved, God will make sure they have every opportunity to obey his commands. He is not wanting them to go to hell so he will preserve them while they try to obey his word. But if they are not honest hearted, there is not guarantee of protection. WE may think they are honest and sincere, but God is the only one that can see the heart.

 

[notuptome]

So for all you who keep saying that baptism is not essential to salvation, and you are saying we are saved by faith. Some of you have said that we are saved by faith only because some of the scriptures literally say, we are saved by grace through faith. Ok, fair enough. Then let me give you another scripture that says how we are SAVED:

1 Peter 3:20 - Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
:21 - The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


What say ye?

Please clarify. Did the water save them or did the ark save them?

1 Peter 3:20 is figurative and not literal. It is using a literal event to illustrate a Spiritual event. If you are endeavoring to make water baptism a literal cause for salvation you do err.

We are saved by Gods grace period. Nothing can be added because Gods grace lacks nothing. Gods grace is perfect in every sense of the word. Gods grace is eternal and wholly sufficient to save.

Please demonstrate why God cannot simply save by His determinate will and for His eternal glory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[mailmandan]

Please clarify. Did the water save them or did the ark save them?

1 Peter 3:20 is figurative and not literal. It is using a literal event to illustrate a Spiritual event. If you are endeavoring to make water baptism a literal cause for salvation you do err.

Amen! 1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents." By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. So in 1 Peter 3:21; it's not the water itself that saves us, but the "appeal-to-God-for-good-conscience" which is signified in baptism.

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ark for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

 

[apostolic862004]

Please clarify. Did the water save them or did the ark save them?

1 Peter 3:20 is figurative and not literal. It is using a literal event to illustrate a Spiritual event. If you are endeavoring to make water baptism a literal cause for salvation you do err.

We are saved by Gods grace period. Nothing can be added because Gods grace lacks nothing. Gods grace is perfect in every sense of the word. Gods grace is eternal and wholly sufficient to save.

Please demonstrate why God cannot simply save by His determinate will and for His eternal glory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The scripture tells you whether the ark saved them or the water saved them. What does the scripture say? It doesn't say they were saved by the ark, it says they were saved by water! Now for them, the water literally saved them. For us today, the water itself is not what saves us. It is what happens spiritually when we go down in the water. This is explained in 1 Peter 3:20. He says that the water is not what cleanses us, but it the answer of a good conscience towards God. But don't get confused and say that baptism is not required for salvation. Yes it is. Its just that water in baptism is not what cleanses us, it is the work of the Spirit while we are being baptized. But the work won't happen if you are not baptized because it takes place during baptism.


So what is happening spiritually when we get baptized? Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12 both tell us that we are BURIED with him by baptism. So when we are baptized, we are burying the old man. It is symbolic of us burying our old lifestyle.

Now hopefully we can agree that in order to be saved, you must obey the gospel. So what is the gospel? Well according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, it is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So how do we obey that? When we repent, we are dying to our old lifestyle. When we are baptized, we bury that old man. When we receive the Holy Ghost, we are resurrected to live our new life in Jesus.

 

[notuptome]

The scripture tells you whether the ark saved them or the water saved them. What does the scripture say? It doesn't say they were saved by the ark, it says they were saved by water! Now for them, the water literally saved them. For us today, the water itself is not what saves us. It is what happens spiritually when we go down in the water. This is explained in 1 Peter 3:20. He says that the water is not what cleanses us, but it the answer of a good conscience towards God. But don't get confused and say that baptism is not required for salvation. Yes it is. Its just that water in baptism is not what cleanses us, it is the work of the Spirit while we are being baptized. But the work won't happen if you are not baptized because it takes place during baptism.


So what is happening spiritually when we get baptized? Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12 both tell us that we are BURIED with him by baptism. So when we are baptized, we are burying the old man. It is symbolic of us burying our old lifestyle.

Now hopefully we can agree that in order to be saved, you must obey the gospel. So what is the gospel? Well according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, it is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So how do we obey that? When we repent, we are dying to our old lifestyle. When we are baptized, we bury that old man. When we receive the Holy Ghost, we are resurrected to live our new life in Jesus.

I hardly know where to begin...you are so far away from the sound exegesis of this passage that it is not funny. The passage is figurative as Peter confirms in the passage. You claim it is literal. It is an account of a literal event but it's use in this instance is clearly figurative just like water baptism. Apart from the ark Noah would have perished. Apart from the grace of God in Christ Jesus we would perish. The water was God's wrath poured out on the sinful men on the earth. We when we receive water baptism do not get baptized in wrath or judgment but we are raised symbolically in newness of life because God's grace has made us new creatures in Christ.

What assurance do you have that you are saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[apostolic862004]

I hardly know where to begin...you are so far away from the sound exegesis of this passage that it is not funny. The passage is figurative as Peter confirms in the passage. You claim it is literal. It is an account of a literal event but it's use in this instance is clearly figurative just like water baptism. Apart from the ark Noah would have perished. Apart from the grace of God in Christ Jesus we would perish. The water was God's wrath poured out on the sinful men on the earth. We when we receive water baptism do not get baptized in wrath or judgment but we are raised symbolically in newness of life because God's grace has made us new creatures in Christ.

What assurance do you have that you are saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome, I understand exactly what you are saying about the ark and I agree. Noah and his family were saved because they obeyed God and got in the ark. I agree, I agree. But specifically in this passage of scripture, Peter is make a parallel between the WATER then, and the WATER now. He specifically says WATER for a reason. When you are baptized, you are baptized in WATER. The point that Peter is making is that the WATER in Noah's day was a cleansing agent. It washed away the wickedness. The like figure is that when we are baptized today, it is symbolic of the washing away of our sins and cleansing our conscience. This is the same thing that happened to the Israelites according to 1 Corinthians 10:2. The Israelites were baptized unto Moses in the cloud (symbolic of spirit baptism) and in the sea (symbolic of water baptism). What happened when the Israelites passed through the sea? The wicked Egyptian tried to follow them and they were drowned. The Israelites were delivered from their bondage. We are bound by sin until we repent and are baptized. When you come out of the water, your old sins, your old way of living, the old man is left behind in the water. Not physically, but spiritually. The old testament events were they literal types of what now happens to us spiritually. That is why Peter used the phrase "the LIKE FIGURE whereunto even BAPTISM doth also NOW save us."

 

[SeaBass]

I hardly know where to begin...you are so far away from the sound exegesis of this passage that it is not funny.
Roger

apostolic862004 quoted Peter in saying "8 souls saved by water". Peter said water, Greek hydor and not "ark". So how can you accuse him of unsound exegesis when you are trying to CHANGE what Peter said to simply avoid the force of the OT type to NT anti-type Peter is making?

OT type ------ saved by water
NT antitype----saved by water

 

[SeaBass]

I think to be baptized is very much a re-affirmation and deceleration of laying down the old life. And it is instructed that a believer should be baptized. I personally do not think anyone who comes to Christ should hesitate to be baptized. In my opinion churches should have a bath or a swimming pool ready for every single service, so that WHEN a person is saved in that service, he can go straight into baptism - but in today's day and time, you have to book it in advance at times.

Now taking this into account, should you give your life to God in a Sunday service, walk out into the parking lot and a tree falls on you killing you, does this mean you are not saved? NOT AT ALL

Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
The scripture says here "he that believes and IS baptizes shall be saved" SO we should get baptized, but it says here too, that "he that believeth not shall be damned"

The second part is what I'm pressing on, it takes your belief and initial repentance, so if you happen to die before you baptize because you had no way of getting baptized you will not be damned because of your faith.

BUT - go get baptized, the word of God insists on it! Why argue the point, its an ACT of your faith!

But Jesus tied believe to baptism with the conjunction "and". That conjunction does not allow the two to be separated. Meaning if it is possible one can be saved without being baptized then one can be saved without believing.

 

[apostolic862004]

apostolic862004 quoted Peter in saying "8 souls saved by water". Peter said water, Greek hydor and not "ark". So how can you accuse him of unsound exegesis when you are trying to CHANGE what Peter said to simply avoid the force of the OT type to NT anti-type Peter is making?

OT type ------ saved by water
NT antitype----saved by water

And not only that, but this is the same Peter that preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38 and told the men that they needed to repent AND BE BAPTIZED in Jesus name. This is also the same Peter that COMMANDED the house of Cornelius to be baptized in Acts 10:48. But if you back up to verse 47, Peter said "Can any man forbid WATER?"that these should not be BAPTIZED as well as we?" Well Peter, I hate to tell you this but there are a whole lot of people on this forum trying to forbid WATER!

Acts 8:36 - And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
:37 - And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
:38 - And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
:39 - And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Baptism is done by water. You guys can close your eyes and try to make it say something else all you want to but you are still going to be held accountable for not being baptized in WATER.

 

[SeaBass]

And not only that, but this is the same Peter that preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38 and told the men that they needed to repent AND BE BAPTIZED in Jesus name. This is also the same Peter that COMMANDED the house of Cornelius to be baptized in Acts 10:48. But if you back up to verse 47, Peter said "Can any man forbid WATER?"that these should not be BAPTIZED as well as we?" Well Peter, I hate to tell you this but there are a whole lot of people on this forum trying to forbid WATER!

It was God's plan salvation not go just to the Jews but also to the Gentiles. So any Jew that tried to forbid water baptism to the Gentiles were trying to thwart God's will in salvation going to the Gentiles for water baptism is the means God uses to save.

 

[apostolic862004]

Where did you water forbidders go? Get tired of seeing the word WATER in connection with BAPTISM that proved your false doctrine wrong?

 

[StoneThrower]

Where did you water forbidders go? Get tired of seeing the word WATER in connection with BAPTISM that proved your false doctrine wrong?

How does anyone forbid water when baptizo means to emerse?

 

[apostolic862004]

How does anyone forbid water when baptizo means to emerse?

I fail to see your point. Did you read my previous post (#170)?

 

[StoneThrower]

I fail to see your point. Did you read my previous post (#170)?

Just now, so are you are refering to those that talk about being baptised in the spirit? Your post confused me as you cant be emersed without water.

 

[apostolic862004]

Just now, so are you are refering to those that talk about being baptised in the spirit? Your post confused me as you cant be emersed without water.

Didn't mean to confuse you. The post was in response to a few individuals on here that were saying that Matt 28:19 was not a command to baptize in water but to baptize in doctrine. Hence my previous post with scriptures about water emphesized, and the post about "water fobidders." They were trying to prove that you don't have to be baptized to be saved and so they were saying that the command to bapize is not talking about water.

 

[notuptome]

Just now, so are you are refering to those that talk about being baptised in the spirit? Your post confused me as you cant be emersed without water.

I see you have never been immersed in thought? Can one be immersed in the Holy Spirit?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[StoneThrower]

I see you have never been immersed in thought? Can one be immersed in the Holy Spirit?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

After you insult me you expect me to respond?

 

[notuptome]

After you insult me you expect me to respond?

Your post said that one cannot be immersed without water. Hence my question of why does it always require water. Let's go back to Bapto and Baptizo context is required to know what is being addressed in the individual passages. Rhetorical question not an insult at least not intended in the context.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[StoneThrower]

To literally baptize, to imerse someone requires water, a believer already has the Holy Spirit when God saves them and baptism is an act of obidence that follows salvation as an outward symbol of the work thats already been done by God, to identify to the church that you are a fellow believer in Christ.