Baptism Essential to Salvation

[Alligator]

The thief lived and died under the OT law and therefore is not an example of NT salvation.

This is something new to me. I'd appreciate if you could elaborate.

Seabass is correct , Patnubay. Good to see someone sincerely seeking the truth.

 

[homwardbound]

Read this passage. Galatians 5:19-21English Standard Version (ESV)

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

you still want to tell me that God does not condemn sin.? What do you think keeps people out of heaven?

So alligator, are you still doing these things for you are saying do not as the word warns us do not, are you not doing the very same things you say not to do?
Or do you not understand the Mercy, kindness and love of God to all that brings one to true repentance with their contrite heart to get a new Heart through Christ?

[h=1]Romans 2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[/h]2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

 

[homwardbound]

let me ask you a question. On a scale from 1 to 10, how much faith do you have to have to be saved? We know James teaches that faith without works is dead. So again, what number on the scale is enough to get us saved.?

I know that was a stupid question, but I was trying to relate it to your question, LOL.

Faith as tiny as the Mustard seed and it grows to what, God does this by us responding in Faith to God and the birds nest and rest in it
Or like the mighty Oak Tree, that was a small nut the stood its ground

[h=1]Colossians 1:22Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[/h][SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


[h=1]Colossians 1:23Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)[/h][SUP]23 [/SUP]if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[Alligator]

So alligator, are you still doing these things for you are saying do not as the word warns us do not, are you not doing the very same things you say not to do?
Or do you not understand the Mercy, kindness and love of God to all that brings one to true repentance with their contrite heart to get a new Heart through Christ?

Romans 2 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

We are all sinners. I don't even know what you're talking about. I think you've been listening to Atwood too much.

 

[homwardbound]

The bible DOES require water baptism. However the post that you responded to was intended to prove that baptism is done in WATER. Obviously man cannot baptize people with the Holy Ghost. So in order to fulfill the great commission, we are to baptize people in WATER. I agree that Jesus did not NEED to be baptized. His baptism was not to wash away sin, his baptism had a two fold purpose: #1 - So that John would know who the Messiah was (John 1:31) #2 - So that we would know that it is the right thing to do (Matt 3:15)

Holy Ghost baptism does NOT occur at the moment someone asks for forgiveness nor when the "accept Christ." If that were true Acts 2:1-4 are wrong. And Acts 8:16-18 are wrong. And Acts 19:1-6 are wrong. Because all of these were believers already since they had already been baptized. That's why they got baptized, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED.

Amen, and that shows that water Baptism is not the salvation, Holy Ghost Baptism is by god from God and God alone thank you. So pray for the Holy Ghost (Spirit of truth) Baptism from God through Son, at the resurrected Son you think?

 

[apostolic862004]

Originally Posted by apostolic862004

I can. Acts 2:38



well you failed. the greek does not say anyone was baptized to recieve remmision of sin, it says they were baptized because they had remmision of sin, based on their repentance.

Acts 2:38 Peter commanded them to repent, AND be baptized FOR the remission of sins. Plain and simple. If remission of sins occurs at repentance as you say, then Luke 24:47 is worded wrong because it separates the two. Also Luke 3:3 and Mark 1:4 proclaim that John preached the BAPTISM of repentance for the remission of sins. Now before you claim that the BAPTISM in this passage is not in water, you need to read Acts 19:1-6. These men were BAPTIZED unto Johns baptism which was in water. When they heard that this was no longer valid, they were RE-BAPTIZED in Jesus name. So remission of sins happens in BAPTISM, not at repentance.

I agree 100%.

now which one saved (cleanses) us and washes our sin?

the one by man, or the one by God?

Titus 3: 5 says it was the one by God.

(ps, as I said, I was baptized, It was an awsome exerience.

Neither will save without the other because Jesus commanded that you must do both. (John 3:5). His apostles also taught that you must do both. You must be born again of the WATER and of the SPIRIT. One without the other leaves you as a disobedient child and you will be lost.

Then you believe that if you had DISOBEYED the command of Christ, you would still have been saved?
No, I would be in sin, and not able to recieve blessing or reward. and under chastening of God.

But I would still be his child.

Sorry, but the wages of sin is DEATH, not loss of blessing or reward. You may still be his child if you continue sinning after you have been born again, but you will be a disobedient child and still be lost.

 

[homwardbound]

If you believe we are saved the same way as the O.T. saints, why aren't you still sacrificing animals?

I think you have mis understood waht is said here

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

SAVED is SAVED and the O.T. saints were saved the same way N.T. saints are saved...by FAITH so...Sea Perch you should lay off the (smoke) and come to the light....I am still waiting for an answer in Once saved always saved that you seem to be unable or unwilling to answer.....

Here I will post again seeing how it goes unanswered!

So...do you loose your salvation instantly or do you have like 24 hours to repent before you loose your salvation...maybe 36 hours?


Originally Posted by SeaBass

Any sin a Christian will not repent of.


1 Jn 1:7 as long as the Christian CONTINUES to walk in the light, then Christ blood CONTINUES to wash away all sins.

If I quit walking in the light then NONE of my sins will be washed away.

So either one is saved or one is not, either one believes God all in all or not, and it is by Faith in God's Mercy to all that we are saved, Old testament believers saw forward to the Christ there redemption, forgiveness, and reconciliation, and we look back to it and are thankful entering his courts with praise and thanksgiving
Psalm 100:4
Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
Job 19:25
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth

Believers just do, for they just trust God, which is what works are a by product of believing God. We are not triers doers as led to do, so in essence it is not us doing it, rather God through us

 

[apostolic862004]

Amen, and that shows that water Baptism is not the salvation, Holy Ghost Baptism is by god from God and God alone thank you. So pray for the Holy Ghost (Spirit of truth) Baptism from God through Son, at the resurrected Son you think?

I agree that water baptism ALONE cannot save you, but neither will Spirit baptism ALONE. Why? Because Jesus commanded us to have BOTH! See John 3:5. You cannot get around this. God that was manifest in the flesh cannot lie. And he said that if you are not born of both the WATER and the SPIRIT you are NOT getting into heaven. There are a lot of people on here that seem to think they will prove him wrong but....we shall see.

 

[homwardbound]

they were not saved by sacrificing animals. Hebrews proves this

Yep, they were only atoned for one year at a time, and Christ came to take away what God was very displeased with and to purge ones conscience from sin, take it away in the believer so that the believer gets focused on what God gives freely, new life in Spirit and truth, and if one is right there where is sin, it is purged is it not? By Christ it is done, waiting for all that will come to belief to come
Thanks EG

 

[homwardbound]

I can;t give you a passage of scripture which says water baptism is for remmision of sin anywhere. So why would it matter of it is shown in the OT.

As in the OT. Water baptism is a prefigure of what really saves, the washing of the HS.

Arron and his sons were washed in the jordan by moses, a symbol of what God would do for us after the death of Christ.



No my friend, It says God baptized me into Christ. Man can not baptize me into Christ only God does.

It is a huge assumption that the word baptize means in water, It does not always mean water, the thing we are babptized into is shown in romans 6. The death and burial of Christ.

Not water.

If you want to be baptized in water, Feel free. I did in obedience to the command of Christ,

But I will never base my salvation on an immersion in water, I will base it and trust god because he himself baptized me into the death, burial and body of Christ

Thats why I KNOW I am saved, it is not based on my work, but Gods completed work, on the cross. and in my life. It is not a defiled salvation, it is a pure salvation. completed fact.

A simple verse to see to see as you say EG, and thanks hope this helps
Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Then came what the Pentecost, the true Baptism, of Spirit and truth, wow. I see the difference as you do as well
Thanks

 

[homwardbound]

no one was saved until Christ died on the cross. In the Old Testament, the annual sacrifices made year after year simply rolled sins forward, so to speak, until Christ came and shed his blood.

Yet prior, Christ was seen by the disciples speaking to Moses and Elijah. Oh the mystery of the Gospel since the foundation of the earth with the fall

 

[homwardbound]

well you failed. the greek does not say anyone was baptized to recieve remmision of sin, it says they were baptized because they had remmision of sin, based on their repentance.


I agree 100%.

now which one saved (cleanses) us and washes our sin?

the one by man, or the one by God?

Titus 3: 5 says it was the one by God.

(ps, as I said, I was baptized, It was an awsome exerience.




No, I would be in sin, and not able to recieve blessing or reward. and under chastening of God.

But I would still be his child.

If anyone is chastised by, from God then we can glory in God thanking God for God's rod and staff you think?
Psalms 23

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is something new to me. I'd appreciate if you could elaborate.

it is a false thinking that people in the OT were saved by following the law of the OT. While people of the NT are saved by obeying whatever law they claim (it depends on who you talk to as to what law that is)

Research it. Abraham was saved by faith. David claimed the law could not save him. No one was ever saved by the law. Again hebrews proves this.

 

[homwardbound]

I wonder. Why do you study God's word? Is it to discover its truth, or to justify your position on debatable issues?

Good ? to all Brother, and for me, as I go all I want and care to know is God above all things and know to trust to love all as God so well showed us all by Son Christ our reconciliation to Father, being taught truth over error as God takes up residence in any one that decides to believe, and if that seed is not on fertile soil, then chances of that person to last through all the trials and tribulations here on earth might not last as the parable from Christ reveals this.

So praying we all ask for the fertile soil to be planted in?

 

[notuptome]

Read this passage. Galatians 5:19-21English Standard Version (ESV)

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

you still want to tell me that God does not condemn sin.? What do you think keeps people out of heaven?

I still want you to understand Gods grace. Gods grace overcomes all of what you have said. Why? Because those who are in Christ are not living in the flesh but in the Spirit.

I will tell you that there are many who claim to be saved who are not. They have never let go of the old man and still abide in their sin. Head knowledge but no heart possession. They are religious they are legalists but they are not saved by grace. They struggle against Gods grace unable to give up their merits for the merits of Christ.

Quite tragic really. Nothing man can do can add to what Christ has done. God only expects us to believe to be saved and then He makes us able to believe. Water baptism does not add to Gods salvation or impart it. Works do not have any part in salvation. Works can only evidence what is in the heart. We know who is Gods by their works, fruit because we cannot see into the heart. We know we are Gods by the witness of His Spirit with our spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Acts 2:38 Peter commanded them to repent, AND be baptized FOR the remission of sins. Plain and simple. If remission of sins occurs at repentance as you say, then Luke 24:47 is worded wrong because it separates the two. Also Luke 3:3 and Mark 1:4 proclaim that John preached the BAPTISM of repentance for the remission of sins. Now before you claim that the BAPTISM in this passage is not in water, you need to read Acts 19:1-6. These men were BAPTIZED unto Johns baptism which was in water. When they heard that this was no longer valid, they were RE-BAPTIZED in Jesus name. So remission of sins happens in BAPTISM, not at repentance.

Thanks for reading us the english version (flawed as it is)

Even the old english versions let us know this is not true, By using you and Ye (the singular and plural forms of you. proving he was speaking to two groups of people) Which is proven by the greek text

Neither will save without the other because Jesus commanded that you must do both. (John 3:5). His apostles also taught that you must do both. You must be born again of the WATER and of the SPIRIT. One without the other leaves you as a disobedient child and you will be lost.

Jesus never commanded anyone to be baptised in john 3. When nicodemous asked him how. he told him.

God so loved the world. he gave his only son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, shall never perish (die) but has eternal life (born again)

No baptism in there. if Jesus meant baptism, he would have told nicodemous right there and then, not tell him all he has to do is have faith.

Sorry, but the wages of sin is DEATH, not loss of blessing or reward. You may still be his child if you continue sinning after you have been born again, but you will be a disobedient child and still be lost.

yep. the gift of God is eternal life.

sorry, your not going to EARN a gift, by being baptized by mere men. Or by doing anything, God is offering it to you. Take it.. or reject it, the decision is yours.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes! Baptism saves (1 Peter 3:21)

Yes, full immersion- it is burying your old sinful self- who does not bury a dead person all the way but just sprinkles a little dirt on them? (Romans 6:1-7

Yes- Jesus said to baptize in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19)

You know that puts in on man in a sense, as for man to do it, not God. when in truth it is God that does it right? We are nothing more than newspaper boys and girls are we not?
If we were to do it, why did the disciples have to wait for god in Spirit and truth to come down and lead?
Did not hey already know first hand? did not Jesus already hang around risen for forty days with them explaining all to them?
Why did they have to wait? and so should we have to as well, and seek to know all truth first and ask for this leading of God to trust God to lead and love all by God so we can rest in the midst trusting God and none other? Be God's water glass to be filled and runneth over?

 

[homwardbound]

Yes! Baptism saves (1 Peter 3:21)

Yes, full immersion- it is burying your old sinful self- who does not bury a dead person all the way but just sprinkles a little dirt on them? (Romans 6:1-7

Yes- Jesus said to baptize in the name of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19)

Welcome to CC

 

[homwardbound]

Jesus did not get any of his power untill he was baptized

No recordings right, except when he was in the temple at age 12, confounding the religous leaders and told Mom she should have known he was about his Father's business
The Baptism of Christ by John was for to announce to the First Chosen their Messiah has arrived, which they believed not, and my heart is torn over this, for any and all who choose to not believe God is God's sovereignty. Love and Mercy for all, if one would just change their mind seeing their own depravity in need to be saved period

 

[Alligator]

E.g., can you give me a scripture or two that says baptism was for the remission of sins in the Old Testament ? Also, please see Romans 6:3–6 which says we are buried with Christ into baptism and that it represents the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. This could not have been the case in the Old Testament since Christ had not even been born. Thanks

I can;t give you a passage of scripture which says water baptism is for remmision of sin anywhere. So why would it matter of it is shown in the OT.

As in the OT. Water baptism is a prefigure of what really saves, the washing of the HS.

Arron and his sons were washed in the jordan by moses, a symbol of what God would do for us after the death of Christ.



No my friend, It says God baptized me into Christ. Man can not baptize me into Christ only God does.

It is a huge assumption that the word baptize means in water, It does not always mean water, the thing we are babptized into is shown in romans 6. The death and burial of Christ.

Not water.

If you want to be baptized in water, Feel free. I did in obedience to the command of Christ,

But I will never base my salvation on an immersion in water, I will base it and trust god because he himself baptized me into the death, burial and body of Christ

Thats why I KNOW I am saved, it is not based on my work, but Gods completed work, on the cross. and in my life. It is not a defiled salvation, it is a pure salvation. completed fact.

I am just now getting around to your post. Better late than never.

let me rephrase the question. I'm looking for a scripture anywhere that says baptism was necessary under the law of Moses.

where does it say that God baptized you into Christ? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Bible scholar F. F. Bruce says that a word or phrase is to be taken literally in Scripture unless the context shows it should be figurative. There is nothing in Romans 6:3-6 that gives the impression that it is figurative. Only Christ can administer Holy Spirit baptism. The baptism of the great commission, is obviously water. Man cannot administer Holy Spirit baptism so it could not have been Holy Spirit baptism that Jesus asked the Apostles to perform when he issued the great commission.

Understand I am not saying we do not receive the Holy Spirit. We all receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized, just like they were on the day of Pentecost.(Acts 2:38), But that is not the same as Holy Spirit baptism.

you are right, the water itself does not save. But it's the act of obedience to God's word that saves us. Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38