BEWARE the Lawkeepers

[Dan_473]

I have referenced this many times but one more won't hurt. If we were discussing "Thou shalt not kill." how many people would bristle up and argue against keeping that Commandment? None! The only one that is fought over is the fourth Commandment.

Yo John! (or anyone else that wants to reply)... I've asked this of other sabbath keepers, but I haven't heard your take... How do you decide if a certain activity honors or not the sabbath? Example... Can you lift a sheep out of a pit on the sabbath? Grace to you all!

 

[Brother_Don]

We was never told not to do good deeds on Sabbath.

 

[jag1977]

why in the world would you ask your question like that?

I am guessing you have to know my motives and purpose behind the way these words are set. Is there a problem?

 

[Brother_Don]

Yes Dan if need be we can lift a sheep out of ditch on Sabbath.

 

[Brother_Don]

as a matter of fact! Yes, maybe you could enlighten me.

 

[haz]

Scripture also confirms that works must follow faith.

And Jesus tells us that our works are to believe on him, John 6:29

James clearly says that works have to come from Faith so Paul could not have meant that the christian has no works.

Paul states this also,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice he says we are saved by faith and not of works then says we are created in Christ for good works.

The issue you seem to miss is that Paul speaks against being saved by works, he does not speak against doing good works because you are saved ever, not once.
Paul also says:

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
and again:

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

So works deny Christ how? being abominable and disobedient. They sin.

We differ in that you see works as works of the law, whereas I see works as Jesus described in John 6:29, believe on him.

The "good works" that scripture speaks of is to believe on Jesus.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.

And how do the legalists deny him (Tit 1:16)?
By their works.
What works?
It's works of the law that shows that one denies Christ.
Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

James connects the works directly to the 10 commandments as he quotes specifically the ones to do with love one another.

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jas_2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

see James says we are justified by faith which brings works and He connects it with the 10 commandments in this chapter Just as Paul said,

Note who James is addressing. It's those who are drifting back under the law.
James 2:4
have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?

James goes on to explain to them how the law requires perfect obedience and anything less makes you guilty of all the law.

James 2 offers no support to legalist doctrine, as you had hoped.

but many have become forgetful hearers.

Again, the forgetful hearers refers to legalists who forget what they had under grace and turn back to the law.

1Jn_3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

And those who commit sin as described here in 1John 3:8 refers to those under the law.
Remember whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
Those in unbelief (rejecting Christ) are those who seek to establish righteousness by works of the law.

Mat_5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

then straight away goes into the law and how it needs to be kept in the inside not just the outside.

You misunderstand this chapter if you think it means we must do works of the law to prove "imparted" righteousness.

Jesus also condemns self works:

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

notice the issue is they work iniquity/sin. their works are not righteous but sinful.

The workers of iniquity are those who are under the law.
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Those who turn back to the law (rebuilding righteousness by works of the law) only succeed in making themselves a sinner. That is they're workers of iniquity.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again those things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner/worker of iniquity.

.Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

again Jesus says condemnation for evil works life for good works.

Those who have done good are those who believe on Jesus.

Those who have done evil are those who deny Jesus.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

what does God mean spue you out?

it has to do with keeping the laws of God and not doing the evil of other nations.

hot is obeying God.
cold is the abominations
Lukewarm is a mixture of obedience and sin. trying to have both worlds.
Spue out means to cut of from among Gods people.
Again if we do not obey God then he will spue us out.

You SDA's only see scripture through one perspective, which is righteousness by works of the law.
Hence why we see disagreement so often with 2 opposing sides (grave v's works of the law).

God's wish is that we're either hot or cold.
Righteousness by grace OR works of the law.

By works of the law none of us would be saved. In fact the whole world is guilty before God, under the law, Rom 3:19.
The alternative is righteousness by faith.

But the lukewarm doctrines that mix works of the law with grace God will spue out.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

James 3:10,11 an example of lukewarm teaching.
Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation under the law). My brethren, these things ought not to be so.Does a spring send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter (judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening?

 

[Brother_Don]

what an terrible thing it would be to hear the Lord say, i never knew you.

 

[john832]

SDA do not teach they are justified by the law. It is a false accusation by those either misinformed or teach against the law as there seem to be here on CC. Anytime keeping the law is mentioned, no matter how much people say it is out of love, in His strength not ours, as a result of grace people always find fault. The law is good as the Bible says, so why do they teach against it.

I am not an SDA but I have never heard any SDA teachings that remotely sound like justification by Law. All that I have seen or heard have been justification by the death of Christ.

 

[haz]

Do you really think people will get to heaven having a lazy attitude? Doing whatever they want, living as a worlding, living a life of sin?

This is a common legalist response.
Either you misunderstand everything that has been said by those here preaching grace or it's a red herring argument meant to mislead.

 

[Dan_473]

Yes Dan if need be we can lift a sheep out of ditch on Sabbath.

Cool... Thanks for the answer! How did you come to that conclusion? Could you lift more than one out on the sabbath? Grace to you!

 

[haz]

I have referenced this many times but one more won't hurt. If we were discussing "Thou shalt not kill." how many people would bristle up and argue against keeping that Commandment? None! The only one that is fought over is the fourth Commandment.

1John 3:22,23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment

Note no Sabbath or dietary rules listed.
And there are many other scriptures that further contradict the doctrine of legalists.

 

[Laodicea]

This is a common legalist response.
Either you misunderstand everything that has been said by those here preaching grace or it's a red herring argument meant to mislead.

You want the easy road to heaven You think it is by grace with no works at all.

Titus 1:16 KJV
(16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[jag1977]

as a matter of fact! Yes, maybe you could enlighten me.

To what, the problem? You have a problem and my solution of that problem is nothing without the meaning

 

[Laodicea]

1John 3:22,23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment

Note no Sabbath or dietary rules listed.
And there are many other scriptures that further contradict the doctrine of legalists.

You only ever quote those verses that suit your doctrine of the easy road. no works doctrine. We can live as we please.

 

[jag1977]

I am considering taking the problem you have and dividing it many ways to see if the problem multiplies in negativity or grows like it should.

 

[john832]

Yo John! (or anyone else that wants to reply)... I've asked this of other sabbath keepers, but I haven't heard your take... How do you decide if a certain activity honors or not the sabbath? Example... Can you lift a sheep out of a pit on the sabbath? Grace to you all!

Is this a trick question?

Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

 

[JaumeJ]

Read the teachings of our Savior, follow His example, understand the difference of law without grace and law with grace, for where there is punishment or death dictated by the law, our Savior teaches us we have mercy and are free to act in gtood conscience in the sight of the Father.

You may not have received a reply because we have all been asked the same questions time and time again, leading me to believe some are not certain of how the law functions with grace. Grace has destroyed the curse of the law, death.......

Yo John! (or anyone else that wants to reply)... I've asked this of other sabbath keepers, but I haven't heard your take... How do you decide if a certain activity honors or not the sabbath? Example... Can you lift a sheep out of a pit on the sabbath? Grace to you all!

 

[john832]

1John 3:22,23
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment

Note no Sabbath or dietary rules listed.
And there are many other scriptures that further contradict the doctrine of legalists.

OK, please explain what this means...

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[haz]

what an terrible thing it would be to hear the Lord say, i never knew you.

Matt 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

What is the will of our Father in Heaven?
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Gal 3:12
The law is not of faith.

 

[john832]

Yo John! (or anyone else that wants to reply)... I've asked this of other sabbath keepers, but I haven't heard your take... How do you decide if a certain activity honors or not the sabbath? Example... Can you lift a sheep out of a pit on the sabbath? Grace to you all!

Would I fix a storm damaged roof for my neighbor on the Sabbath if another storm were threatening?

In a New York minute.