Free Gifts Come With Conditions....
- Thread starter SeaBass
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D
The faith vs. works argument for the ages! I know it well.
My point was that much of your argument is centered around the collecting manna being physically or spiritually connected to faith. There was no faith involved! Eating manna was necessary to sustain their lives and therefore made collecting it imperative.
I don't eat my breakfast in faith. I prepare it with the intention of sustaining my appetite to live. Plus it tastes good, that helps.
Some works of the flesh:
Eating manna - we must have sustenance
Drinking - we must take water
Sleeping - observe the tweeker
Earning a living - although in some USA states this isn't necessary, sadly
Cancer treatments - I could say going to the doctor but this analogy drives my point home better
Some works of The Spirit:
Faith: Believing God and thus being 'saved'; work: I answered God's call to salvation
Faith: Feasting on God's Word; work: Taking time to open God's word
Faith: Worshipping God; work: I made this manna; it is mine.
Faith: Prayer and fasting; work: Prayer and fasting
Hmmmm, funny - I wanted to list works of faith alone, but was compelled to list the work that results from the faith.
Alnyways, all are acceptable to God. You can't have faith without works. "The Father is working and I am working". If I am not sustained by manna, I am not working. If God is not sending the manna, then I am not sustained.
What about this, hiding God's messengers because of knowledge that they were God's messengers? There was a work involved, a possible ulterior motive - the saving of Rahab's family. It would appear that faith and a desire for a means to that faith are connected here. God accepted her 'work' as faith. "By faith Rahab ..."
Eh, you guys are heavy hitting arguers, much respect to you. I enjoyed reading your thread. Hopefully you can understand my 'works are faith' illustration. <smile>
To see if they would be obedient , simple instructions and they had problems...
Do you think Moses had to lift up his rod for God to part the sea sea?
Do you think Noah had to build an ark for God to save him, his family and the animals?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Do you think Moses had to lift up his rod for God to part the sea sea?
Do you think Noah had to build an ark for God to save him, his family and the animals?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
that reminds me of something:
So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill.
As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning.
When Moses’ hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset.
(Exodus 17:10-12)
Joshua was down in the valley fighting the Amelekites, doing what the world would call 'the real work' --
but an essential 'work' of faith was being done up on the top of the hill.
& there, when Moses was unable to do the 'work' of standing with his arms upraised,
he was supported by a rock, and his arms held up by his brothers.
So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill.
As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning.
When Moses’ hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset.
(Exodus 17:10-12)
Joshua was down in the valley fighting the Amelekites, doing what the world would call 'the real work' --
but an essential 'work' of faith was being done up on the top of the hill.
& there, when Moses was unable to do the 'work' of standing with his arms upraised,
he was supported by a rock, and his arms held up by his brothers.
I'm not going to do much for this debate. I will only state something to help you all in your discussion.
work
/wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA
noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.
3. productive or operative activity.
4. employment, as in some form of industry, especially as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.
5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.
So work can be under definition 1) and 3) what SeaBass is claiming about the manna.
However, I'd like to define something else. Since theres 35 definitions of Free, I'll post the ones that are in the other people's arguments favor.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]9.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]costing nothing; provided without charge: free entertainment
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]30.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]without charge or cost
So before you start arguing, you better figure out which of the definitions of Free you are talking about when it comes to a free gift
.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
work
/wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA
noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.
3. productive or operative activity.
4. employment, as in some form of industry, especially as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.
5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.
So work can be under definition 1) and 3) what SeaBass is claiming about the manna.
However, I'd like to define something else. Since theres 35 definitions of Free, I'll post the ones that are in the other people's arguments favor.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]9.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]costing nothing; provided without charge: free entertainment
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]30.
[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]without charge or cost
So before you start arguing, you better figure out which of the definitions of Free you are talking about when it comes to a free gift
.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Peter was unable to complete 'the work'
But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out,
and when He cried out to the Lord,
the Lord, by the strength of His own arm, preserved him.
But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out,
“Lord, save me!”
Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said,
“why did you doubt?”
(Matthew 14:30-31)“why did you doubt?”
and when He cried out to the Lord,
the Lord, by the strength of His own arm, preserved him.
D
Gathering manna as a test is easier to accept than gathering manna is a work. But then I think about the manna as being Christ, and our work of receiving him. That is a little easier to swallow. No pun intended.
Still in all three cases those 'works' would yield life sustaining rewards. That's my point.
Still in all three cases those 'works' would yield life sustaining rewards. That's my point.
D
I'm not going to do much for this debate. I will only state something to help you all in your discussion.
work
/wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA
noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.
3. productive or operative activity.
4. employment, as in some form of industry, especially as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.
5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.
So work can be under definition 1) and 3) what SeaBass is claiming about the manna.
However, I'd like to define something else. Since theres 35 definitions of Free, I'll post the ones that are in the other people's arguments favor.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]9.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]costing nothing; provided without charge: free entertainment [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]30.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]without charge or cost
So before you start arguing, you better figure out which of the definitions of Free you are talking about when it comes to a free gift.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
work
/wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA
noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.
3. productive or operative activity.
4. employment, as in some form of industry, especially as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.
5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.
So work can be under definition 1) and 3) what SeaBass is claiming about the manna.
However, I'd like to define something else. Since theres 35 definitions of Free, I'll post the ones that are in the other people's arguments favor.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]9.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]costing nothing; provided without charge: free entertainment [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]30.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]without charge or cost
So before you start arguing, you better figure out which of the definitions of Free you are talking about when it comes to a free gift
.[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
So I can't get past the manna as a faith vs. works argument. Lol. The other instances of faith mentioned here are definitely faith based works, because who knew that God would part the sea or send a flood? Moses and Noah, by faith, knew it.
the work is in the obedience to the commands or instructions and we are having the same problem to this day...
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[SUP](some say it is not necessary)
[/SUP]
Hebrews 13:16
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
But some still teach your good works is filthy rags
[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[SUP](some say it is not necessary)
[/SUP]
Hebrews 13:16
But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
But some still teach your good works is filthy rags
[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
The issue I am raising is more about do all works imply one is trying to earn something than about the topic of faith.
Some falsely argue that if you obey God by doing any obedient works then you are trying to earn your salvation.
The issue is simply this; did the work of gathering the manna mean they earned the manna? No. So this refutes any notion that obedience to Christ is earning salvation.
Some falsely argue that if you obey God by doing any obedient works then you are trying to earn your salvation.
The issue is simply this; did the work of gathering the manna mean they earned the manna? No. So this refutes any notion that obedience to Christ is earning salvation.
I'm not going to do much for this debate. I will only state something to help you all in your discussion.
work
/wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA
noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.
3. productive or operative activity.
4. employment, as in some form of industry, especially as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.
5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.
So work can be under definition 1) and 3) what SeaBass is claiming about the manna.
However, I'd like to define something else. Since theres 35 definitions of Free, I'll post the ones that are in the other people's arguments favor.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]9.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]costing nothing; provided without charge: free entertainment [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]30.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]without charge or cost
So before you start arguing, you better figure out which of the definitions of Free you are talking about when it comes to a free gift.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
work
/wɜrk/ Show Spelled [wurk] Show IPA
noun 1. exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
2. something on which exertion or labor is expended; a task or undertaking: The students finished their work in class.
3. productive or operative activity.
4. employment, as in some form of industry, especially as a means of earning one's livelihood: to look for work.
5. one's place of employment: Don't phone him at work.
So work can be under definition 1) and 3) what SeaBass is claiming about the manna.
However, I'd like to define something else. Since theres 35 definitions of Free, I'll post the ones that are in the other people's arguments favor.
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]3.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]not subject (to) or restricted (by some regulation, constraint, etc); exempt: a free market ; free from pain [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]9.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]costing nothing; provided without charge: free entertainment [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR="class: tr3"]
[TD="class: td3n1, width: 1%, align: right"]30.[/TD]
[TD="class: td3n2"]without charge or cost
So before you start arguing, you better figure out which of the definitions of Free you are talking about when it comes to a free gift
.[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
The manna was free, it cost the Hebrews nothing, no charge.
So how could the Hebrews exertion/effort/labor in gathering ever earn them the manna when it was free of charge/no cost?
D
I get the feeling the first scriptures are for someone else?
The last three you named, I became convinced to read the verses myself.
Clearly the Israelites did not murmur about having to collect the manna. The 'work' part that they missed was trying to collect it on the sabbath (when it wasn't given) and God found out and was angry.
My mind is aflutter so reading the verses myself sure paid off. The misinformation earlier in the thread, that the Israelites did not want to gather the manna and subsequent perception (at least on my part) that the Israelites had to 'work' for it was unfounded. This, the crux of my argument, that the Israelites (and God) considered the gathering of manna a work, is hereby dismissed. <smile>
God did not consign these sinners to a day without manna over their sin. That's definitely good news.
The last three you named, I became convinced to read the verses myself.
Clearly the Israelites did not murmur about having to collect the manna. The 'work' part that they missed was trying to collect it on the sabbath (when it wasn't given) and God found out and was angry.
My mind is aflutter so reading the verses myself sure paid off. The misinformation earlier in the thread, that the Israelites did not want to gather the manna and subsequent perception (at least on my part) that the Israelites had to 'work' for it was unfounded. This, the crux of my argument, that the Israelites (and God) considered the gathering of manna a work, is hereby dismissed. <smile>
God did not consign these sinners to a day without manna over their sin. That's definitely good news.
actually the first part was generally speaking ....kinda like thinking aloud... I wish there was another word to use instead of work.. when we follow God's instructions. because in a true sense there is no "work" taking place. Just receiving and following instructions. Some consider this to be work so it is just a matter of opinion and words. But it has nothing to do with earning.
Glad you did read the scripture...
Glad you did read the scripture...
Yes, faith without works is dead. But that applies to the change you want to make in life, when you pray for something God gives you the opportunities to do something to receive it. Repentance and changing your life comes from having a genuine faith, it's not something you have to do to show that your faith is real.