BEWARE the Lawkeepers

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, who really knows, unless you take the time to look at God's motivation and plan when He gave the Law?

his motivation was to prove that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

His motivation was to give no man an excuse when they stand on judgment day, For they not only KNOW what is wrong, and are deserving of judgment, but praise those who sin with them

His motivation was to keep us in faith until the seed was born, so all could recieve the blessing given abraham (not just jews, but gentiles also)

His motivation was to lead us to Christ (the commands prove we are guilty, the priesthood proved an innocent had to die for redemption to occur. the many religious traditions holidays, and ritual show us who God is, What he will do (for tham) has done (for us) and give us a better understanding of the plan of God.

You know. the MILK of the word. which one who is not yet born again, or newly born needs to grasp to understand why we need God??

So is it not time to move on to meat. and stop drinking milk?

You have to be open minded to find his motivation. Not stuck on trying to prove yourself right.

 

[psychomom]

No I don't perceive anything our Lord says as a threat. I perceive everything He says as promises.

If He says He loves us, and by showing our love for Him we keep His commandments. That is a promise made.

If He says if you live in willful sin, you will die in your sins by facing fiery indignation. That is a promise too.

is there a sin that isn't willful?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you truly lived with a heart so pure as you are speaking of and above all knowledge of sin or ever any fleshly desires, then why should you object to learning how that is carried out in our life here? I should think that if we are so pure that we never have a mean thought of others, or envy anyone else, etc. that we wouldn't object to hearing that we aren't to do those things but welcome those instructions.

whats sad is you claim to be a christian, and yet do not know what made you a sinner in the first place.

if you do not understand that by now. Your in deep trouble.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

is there a sin that isn't willful?

as the pharisees did. The lawyers have to excuse their sin, They refuse to see themselves and immoral people. Thats why they can not give it all to God. and believe if they are not good enough, they will not get to heaven. (another reason they have to see their sin as accidents, or not intentional. Where as everyone else sins willfully.

 

[psychomom]

Our imperfection is the very reason that God released us from the Law of Sin and Death. And those that don't think the Law of Moses is the Law of Sin and Death - Read it: The law gives power to sin and what was the frequently prescribed punishment - Death (often through stoning).

not to mention eternal death! lol

 

[kennethcadwell]

If you truly lived with a heart so pure as you are speaking of and above all knowledge of sin or ever any fleshly desires, then why should you object to learning how that is carried out in our life here? I should think that if we are so pure that we never have a mean thought of others, or envy anyone else, etc. that we wouldn't object to hearing that we aren't to do those things but welcome those instructions.

Like I said though no person is that pure in heart except Jesus. We all fall short, but some use the fact that they believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior and say they either no longer sin, or say they can live how ever they want because it is no longer considered sin or it is now acceptable to live that way.

The scriptures say differently, and the scriptures they use in defense are taken out of context. Because Paul even said he still sinned, and we know he was saved and had the Holy Spirit. So if Paul abided in God, why did he still sin ? Because that scripture is taken out of context.

But what it comes down to, is what you are doing willful sin ? Willful sin is sinning with out repentance, forgiveness, and no conviction for what you have done.

Those who make sin acceptable whether a professed Christian or not is one who is not repenting, asking forgiveness, and do not feel convicted of that sin.

 

[psychomom]

Like I said though no person is that pure in heart except Jesus. We all fall short, but some use the fact that they believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior and say they either no longer sin, or say they can live how ever they want because it is no longer considered sin or it is now acceptable to live that way.

The scriptures say differently, and the scriptures they use in defense are taken out of context. Because Paul even said he still sinned, and we know he was saved and had the Holy Spirit. So if Paul abided in God, why did he still sin ? Because that scripture is taken out of context.

But what it comes down to, is what you are doing willful sin ? Willful sin is sinning with out repentance, forgiveness, and no conviction for what you have done.

Those who make sin acceptable whether a professed Christian or not is one who is not repenting, asking forgiveness, and do not feel convicted of that sin.

anytime the Gospel of the Lord Jesus is preached, lawyers come and make these accusations.
we are arrogant and say we don't sin, or we are antinomian.

willful sin is exactly what it says.
sin from one's own will, or desire.

when our focus is the Law, whom do we spend all our time looking at?
yep...ourselves.
are we measuring up? do we have it all together? are we making it?

when our focus is on the Gospel, Whom are we looking at?
the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus.

C.F.W. Walther wrote an excellent book called "The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel".
each has its place in the life of the believer, but we need to know (as Walther explains from scripture)
what place these have.
highly recommended!

 

[RedTent]

the commands of the Mosaic covenant is an 'if...then' covenant. (conditional)
if you obey ALL THESE things, you will be blessed.
if you disobey, you will be cursed.

i can only suggest you may not be understanding what Hebrews says about these two Covenants.

Please go to scripture and read all about the giving of the Mosaic Covenant. It does not say that the only way we are blessed by keeping the law is to obey every law. That is the only way we can be saved by the law. The Mosaic Covenant has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation is only through the blood of Christ, it was always so. The Mosaic Covenant was only given after the Hebrews were delivered from slavery, symbolic of Christ saving us from the slavery of our sins, it wasn't given before they were freed, and is only for those who are freed through Christ. Please go to all scripture about this covenant and check me out.

 

[RedTent]

anytime the Gospel of the Lord Jesus is preached, lawyers come and make these accusations.
we are arrogant and say we don't sin, or we are antinomian.

willful sin is exactly what it says.
sin from one's own will, or desire.

when our focus is the Law, whom do we spend all our time looking at?
yep...ourselves.
are we measuring up? do we have it all together? are we making it?

when our focus is on the Gospel, Whom are we looking at?
the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus.

C.F.W. Walther wrote an excellent book called "The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel".
each has its place in the life of the believer, but we need to know (as Walther explains from scripture)
what place these have.
highly recommended!

If you are listening to God you are careful not to focus on any one thing of God. If you want to focus, go to what God says in the most important instructions He gives us, to love the Lord and others. God is a God of balance, focusing takes us out of balance. Christians don't focus, they listen to all of God. They do not even focus on keeping the law out of their life. God is a complete God with so many layers of things for us to understand that we could spend a lifetime learning of him through scripture and still not completely understand, so if we focus on any one thing we are missing out on another.

 

[JaumeJ]

Hear what Paul teaches on this question. If he does the very thing he hates, it seems there is. Anything that overcomes one after one believe Yeshua is not willful according to what Paul teaches.

is there a sin that isn't willful?

 

[JaumeJ]

Yes, the same questions from the same people time and time again. Apparently they do not pay attention to the replies.

Never tire of responding, though at times it seems tedious, for there are always new eyes reading. It is doing what is correct in Yahweh's will. Good works..........no not the law, good works. This too lands on deaf ears.

Do I have to give a sermon and explain every detail everytime I post? People should know. I was posting to EG who I know knows better. People should know their Bible and should not have to explain themselves in every little detail everytime they post. Thereby always having to feed people milk.

 

[KohenMatt]

lol. If we are focused on God. we do not NEED to know what the law says.

that is where we are in opposition. You think you NEED the law to make you righteous. (morally God)

I think I need to know GOD to make me morally good.

oh and PS.. Yes the law helps me to know God. It brought me to him. That is why it is called a schoolmaster.

Now that the schoolmaster has done its job, I no longer need the law. I ALREADY KNOW IT, AND WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT ME.

No, I don't think I need the law to make me righteous, nor have I said ANYTHING like that.

And just because the schoolmaster has done its job doesn't mean you don't use the things it's taught you. Once you learn Algebra and move into Calculus doesn't mean you stop using what you learned in Algebra. You have a different goal while doing Calculus, but you still intentionally go through the steps learned in Algebra.

 

[KohenMatt]

his motivation was to prove that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

His motivation was to give no man an excuse when they stand on judgment day, For they not only KNOW what is wrong, and are deserving of judgment, but praise those who sin with them

His motivation was to keep us in faith until the seed was born, so all could recieve the blessing given abraham (not just jews, but gentiles also)

His motivation was to lead us to Christ (the commands prove we are guilty, the priesthood proved an innocent had to die for redemption to occur. the many religious traditions holidays, and ritual show us who God is, What he will do (for tham) has done (for us) and give us a better understanding of the plan of God.

You know. the MILK of the word. which one who is not yet born again, or newly born needs to grasp to understand why we need God??

So is it not time to move on to meat. and stop drinking milk?

You have to be open minded to find his motivation. Not stuck on trying to prove yourself right.

Please quote the verses from the original law that state this. Please show me why God said He gave the Law. Show us some verses from the first 5 books of the Bible that show why God gave the law.

 

[JaumeJ]

Everyone has been very busy while I slept over here in Spain.

I have read as much as I can for now, and I have found one saying that morality cannot be found in the law. That would be blasphemy had it not been said in ignorance.

Not only is morality found in the law, perfection is found in the law, however no one, aside from our Lord, will ever master following the law.

Salvation is found in the Blood of the Lamb. Once one experiences the Love that comes with the infilling of the Holy Spirit, his heart's desire is to serve and obey Yahweh because of this wonderful gift, the Blood of the Lamb.

The commandments of Yeshua begin in the Old Testament. All He teaches is He gives us a "new" commandment, to love each other. This is not teaching the commandments He gave previous are rescinded, not at all. We believe He is the Son of the Living God when we act accordingly. The law teaches all what to do.

No one will be perfect at this in this age, but on His Day we shall all appear like He, and He will finish the work He began in each of us making us perfect.

As is mentioned in other posts, this response has been given several times by others and by me, and I suppose I will be giving this response again, most likely for the same new-age lawyers.

 

[RedTent]

whats sad is you claim to be a christian, and yet do not know what made you a sinner in the first place.

if you do not understand that by now. Your in deep trouble.

I wonder why it is that when all else fails, when scripture is discussed, that those who cannot answer with scripture answer with personal judgments they are not entitled to make? We are discussing what scripture says, not my personal failings. Would you like this post to switch to the personal strivings we all do? Are you a psychiatrist? If this thread is for that, I have a lot of failings I could share, would you like to hear them all? I need someone to listen.

 

[JaumeJ]

lol. If we are focused on God. we do not NEED to know what the law says.

If you are focused on God, you will hear Him.

that is where we are in opposition. You think you NEED the law to make you righteous. (morally God)

The law is good and holy, Paul. It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the law to pass away, Yeshua. (Look, the earth is still here.)

I think I need to know GOD to make me morally good.

If you truly want to know God, Yahweh, listen to what He says to all flesh.

oh and PS.. Yes the law helps me to know God. It brought me to him. That is why it is called a schoolmaster.

If you have truly learned, you will refer to what you have been taught always. It is not learning to be cast aside, as you and others are intimating about the law.

Now that the schoolmaster has done its job, I no longer need the law. I ALREADY KNOW IT, AND WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT ME.

If you already know the law, you will do your best to do it. You had the law as your schoolmaster, now would you destroy what you have been taught? This is an odd approach to pleasing Jesus, Yeshua.
　

Obey the commandments of our Maker, they are for your good.

 

[gotime]

Consider your quote below where you describe what it is to be righteous.



Here we see that you are, by implication, saying that our faith is not counted for righteousness because works of the law are necessary to do righteousness.

However we see in scripture that in Christ, a Christian's faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5), and that we're holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14) and complete (Col 2:10). This contradicts your description of a Christian being crippled if they do not obey the law.
Clearly you see that nobody is righteous unless they obey the law of sin and death.

And as the law requires perfect obedience, then we see that without perfect obedience to the law you seem to be claiming we're unrighteous.

However, there seems to be variations offered by some legalists on what the law requires, in spite of the fact that there are no scriptures to back up such doctrines claiming that near enough is good enough under the law.

For example, Laodicea described how what level of obedience to the law is expected of us by God, is dependent on what "light" we are given. Do you agree with Laodicea on this?

So to help me understand your doctrine, are you suggesting that any SDA who obeys the law half the time is half righteous? Or is their righteousness dependent on what God expects as a minimum standard of obedience to the law given the amount of "light" they have received?

As to your question in the last paragraph.

First God's minimum standard is complete surrender and complete obedience. No sin is ok with God. Sin is to break the commandments of God, the word itself means "to miss the mark" what mark the commandments are the mark the standard. The law puts forth a standard and that standard puts all of us in sin and need of Jesus.

So If I know that and only obey God half the time then I am not surrendered to Christ and thus I will miss the mark and sin thus breaking the commandments.

There is no such thing as half righteous you are either righteous or not.

And there is only one way to be righteous and that is to receive by Faith the righteousness of Christ. Let me give an example:

If I steal and commit adultery and am convicted by the law that I have sinned and missed the mark. I have three options,

1. who cares Ill just keep going.
2. try real hard to stop stealing and committing adultery which will fail.
3. Accept Jesus as my substitute and in Faith claim his righteousness.

What are the results?

1. nothing changes still sins.
2. one becomes bitter, judgmental, disillusioned and fails still sins.
3. Freed in Jesus and no longer steals or commits adultery stops sin.

Jesus righteousness converts us by faith in Him. that is why John could say he who does righteousness is righteous. John understood that He who walks in Faith will be imputed with Jesus righteousness which converts the soul from sin to righteousness.

Its that simple,

He who stole and steals no more shows the work of God in Him.

She who committed adultery and does no more shows Faith in action.

It takes love to die for a friend, Jesus truly loved us. But it takes power to convert that friend, Jesus does that also by the same faith that we have in his death for our sins.

Jesus is the creator of the heavens and the earth, That sound like what we need Jesus to create in us a clean heart.

 

[yesyoushould]

Beware of those who choose not to break the law? Never heard of that before.

 

[haz]

The law puts forth a standard and that standard puts all of us in sin and need of Jesus.

So If I know that and only obey God half the time then I am not surrendered to Christ and thus I will miss the mark and sin thus breaking the commandments.

There is no such thing as half righteous you are either righteous or not.

And there is only one way to be righteous and that is to receive by Faith the righteousness of Christ. Let me give an example:

If I steal and commit adultery and am convicted by the law that I have sinned and missed the mark. I have three options,

1. who cares Ill just keep going.
2. try real hard to stop stealing and committing adultery which will fail.
3. Accept Jesus as my substitute and in Faith claim his righteousness.

What are the results?

1. nothing changes still sins.
2. one becomes bitter, judgmental, disillusioned and fails still sins.
3. Freed in Jesus and no longer steals or commits adultery stops sin.

Still have some more questions to try to understand fully what SDA doctrine is trying to say.

You say that Christians should "receive by Faith the righteousness of Christ" and you indicate that this manifests as (for example) "no longer steals or commits adultery stops sin". If I understand you correctly, you are referring to "imparted" righteousness. And this "imparted" righteousness (perfect obedience to the law) is proof that one is righteous and saved.
Is this correct?

I've known many Adventists over the years and none of them are perfect in obeying the law. This would prove that they do not have "imparted" righteousness, or to use your words, they did not "receive by Faith the righteousness of Christ".
How do Adventists deal with this issue amongst their members

To use another example, this time non-Adventists, most of us here do not keep the Saturday Sabbath, nor dietary laws. This Christian majority never keep the Sabbath holy, even up till the day they die. Are you saying that we here are not "freed in Christ" and in missing the mark we have thus not "received by Faith the righteousness of Christ"?

 

[haz]

Beware of those who choose not to break the law? Never heard of that before.

Actually it refers to legalists who preach that without obedience to the law then we're unrighteous/lost.

It's the grace verses works of the law debate.

Rom 11:6 speaks of it.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.