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K
Well lets see there was a debate about homosexuality a couple of days ago, and I said that if a person truly repented of this sin they could not live in homosexuality and still be saved.
You and another debated me on this, and said they could.
A true repentance is not still living in that willful sin. To continue to live that way, and not turn from that sin is not a true showing of one who is in Christ. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind.
You can say you love the Lord all you want, but if you don't show it, then it is just lip service.
H
Ok, I have re-read your answer. I suspect English may not be your first language as part of your reply quoted below was somewhat ambiguous at first reading.
So my question was, does the doctrine you follow say that the least in heaven are righteous, holy and perfect?
To this you answered (see your quote below) you don't know, claiming that it's not in scripture.
But God does answer this in scripture saying that Christians are righteous (Rom 4:5), holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14) and complete (Col 2:10).
Do you acknowledge what God says on this or does the doctrine you follow claim that perfect works of the law is required to attain it?
My other question was do you see yourself as one of the great or the least in God's kingdom?
In other words, do you keep the law perfectly, which is another distinguishing factor for those who are called great in Heaven?
To this you answered that you do not obey the law perfectly, nor can you. Hence we conclude from your understanding of scripture that you believe that you will be called "least" in Heaven.
It would be interesting to see if the other legalists here also see themselves as the least in Heaven due to their failure to obey the law perfectly.
So my question was, does the doctrine you follow say that the least in heaven are righteous, holy and perfect?
To this you answered (see your quote below) you don't know, claiming that it's not in scripture.
But God does answer this in scripture saying that Christians are righteous (Rom 4:5), holy (Rom 11:16), perfected (Heb 10:14) and complete (Col 2:10).
Do you acknowledge what God says on this or does the doctrine you follow claim that perfect works of the law is required to attain it?
My other question was do you see yourself as one of the great or the least in God's kingdom?
In other words, do you keep the law perfectly, which is another distinguishing factor for those who are called great in Heaven?
To this you answered that you do not obey the law perfectly, nor can you. Hence we conclude from your understanding of scripture that you believe that you will be called "least" in Heaven.
It would be interesting to see if the other legalists here also see themselves as the least in Heaven due to their failure to obey the law perfectly.
you do know that Romans 7 is an example of a person who has not died to the law right?
Romans 7 is a slave to sin? not freed in Christ but slave to the Devil.
Romans 7 man does not have Christ in them they are failing because they do not have Christ. No wonder your misunderstanding me.
There is no way on earth that you can convince anyone that Romans 7 is saved in that condition.
IN fact I am going to do a post on that exact thing.
Romans 7 is a slave to sin? not freed in Christ but slave to the Devil.
Romans 7 man does not have Christ in them they are failing because they do not have Christ. No wonder your misunderstanding me.
There is no way on earth that you can convince anyone that Romans 7 is saved in that condition.
IN fact I am going to do a post on that exact thing.
H
Rom 7 speaks of the battle within man. Who will be in control. The flesh or the Spirit.
If we believe on Jesus, then we're walking in the spirit.
If we're in unbelief (such as righteousness by works of the law) then we are walking in the flesh.
As for your claim that Rom 7 only speaks of unsaved man, that is error as Rom 7 speaks of both states.
Note Rom 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,
Note Rom 7:25
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind (spirit, Eph 4:23) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh (unbelief/righteousness by works of the law) the law of sin.
BTW, do you see yourself as being called "least" or as "great" in Heaven?
If we believe on Jesus, then we're walking in the spirit.
If we're in unbelief (such as righteousness by works of the law) then we are walking in the flesh.
As for your claim that Rom 7 only speaks of unsaved man, that is error as Rom 7 speaks of both states.
Note Rom 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,
Note Rom 7:25
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind (spirit, Eph 4:23) I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh (unbelief/righteousness by works of the law) the law of sin.
BTW, do you see yourself as being called "least" or as "great" in Heaven?
Then the problem seems to me that you can not distinguish between law keeping as a means of salvation and law keeping as a fruit of salvation.
One by works the other by faith. You seem to lump them together from my perspective.
You also seem to still limit what believing in Jesus actually means.
I think the Gospel is simple, Slaves to sin by Faith become free in Christ.
Slaves to sin, do sin.
Free in Christ, do righteousness.
You seem to want both at the same time, That is not freedom that is deceptive slavery, lukewarm religion.
Think about it logically for a second.
The law leads us to Christ how?
Because we are sinners and thus when we see we are breaking the law we see our need of saving.
Thus Saving in Christ not only needs to fix my past sin but also my current life so I stop sinning. Because If I keep sinning then the law keeps condemning me.
We are judged not by our profession but by our works, and the law is the measuring stick to see who is in faith and who is not.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
So your Faith is it has not works then its dead and does not help you at all.
One by works the other by faith. You seem to lump them together from my perspective.
You also seem to still limit what believing in Jesus actually means.
I think the Gospel is simple, Slaves to sin by Faith become free in Christ.
Slaves to sin, do sin.
Free in Christ, do righteousness.
You seem to want both at the same time, That is not freedom that is deceptive slavery, lukewarm religion.
Think about it logically for a second.
The law leads us to Christ how?
Because we are sinners and thus when we see we are breaking the law we see our need of saving.
Thus Saving in Christ not only needs to fix my past sin but also my current life so I stop sinning. Because If I keep sinning then the law keeps condemning me.
We are judged not by our profession but by our works, and the law is the measuring stick to see who is in faith and who is not.
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
So your Faith is it has not works then its dead and does not help you at all.
I have heard others say that because we do not obey the law perfectly we should not obey the law. Scripture tells us to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect, and it tells us that we are not perfect. So if we are to be perfect and we are not perfect, and we are to obey both do you think you can outsmart God by saying the you should not do your best to be perfect because you can't do it perfectly?
From Haz to me: My other question was do you see yourself as one of the great or the least in God's kingdom?
In other words, do you keep the law perfectly, which is another distinguishing factor for those who are called great in Heaven?
To Haz. This is not for a believer to delve into nor for a believer to ask another, this is decided by Yeshua, and if you do not know this, you do now.
From Haz: To this you answered that you do not obey the law perfectly, nor can you. Hence we conclude from your understanding of scripture that you believe that you will be called "least" in Heaven.
To Haz: What I replied is true for all who are not perfect. Because of Yeshua, my sin is not imputed to me, thus by grace I obey all law. You should know this. Now you do. Stop putting people on trial, this is not given to any of the saints to do until His Great Day.
Also, please stop bringing up Scripture as if I have made reference to it. If you wish to make reference to a Scripture maintain it is your addition.
In other words, do you keep the law perfectly, which is another distinguishing factor for those who are called great in Heaven?
To Haz. This is not for a believer to delve into nor for a believer to ask another, this is decided by Yeshua, and if you do not know this, you do now.
From Haz: To this you answered that you do not obey the law perfectly, nor can you. Hence we conclude from your understanding of scripture that you believe that you will be called "least" in Heaven.
To Haz: What I replied is true for all who are not perfect. Because of Yeshua, my sin is not imputed to me, thus by grace I obey all law. You should know this. Now you do. Stop putting people on trial, this is not given to any of the saints to do until His Great Day.
Also, please stop bringing up Scripture as if I have made reference to it. If you wish to make reference to a Scripture maintain it is your addition.
E
I do hear him.
love all people. Place the needs of everyone you come in contact with above yourself.
Never forsake the assembling together
Test all spirits to see if they are from God
Study to show myself approved, a workman who needs not be ashamed
Seek after the things of the spirit
Fruit of the spirit - [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
yep and the law is still here too. As long as there are people who are unsaved, the law will need to do its job as schoolmaster.
what you do not think I am doing that? The law did its job in my life. Now I need to move on to meat, not the milk of the word. I could keep following the law law I did as a young believer, but then I would never have grown up.
The only reason I would have to refer to it is if I did not learn it in the first place. Of course then I would be in trouble. And doubt my salvation. Because the schoolmaster has not yet done its Job, because my pride got in the way
1. I could try my best., and my best would not be good enough.
2. I can't fuflill the law. even today. I would have to be sinless
3. The law can not show me how to do good. all it an do is ontinue to urse me and show me how bad I CONTINUE to fail
He gave alot more than ten. And the ten he gave for a purpose. To lead me to Christ, because I an't even follow these ten he gave..
E
H
You are misunderstanding scriptures as you see everything through legalist tinted glasses.
Yes, slaves to sin, do sin.
How does one sin?
You bring yourself under the law, as whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
Once you are under the law then you can be charged with transgression of it (sin, 1John 3:4). Just one offence makes you guilty of all the law, James 2:10. Hence we see that all legalists are sinners/workers of iniquity.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner
Are Christians under the law?
Answer: No (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
So can Christians be charged with sin?
Answer: No.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 4:15
because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression./Sin
The law can condemn when you are under the law.
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
SDA doctrine is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace. Hence we see the same old condemnation under the law as was in the OT.
SDA's forget Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh (self-righteousness by works of the law), but according to the Spirit (believing on Jesus, thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5).
SDA doctrine preaches condemnation in spite of the fact that God says there is no condemnation in Christ, Rom 8:1
SDA doctrine continues to charge Christians with sin in spite of the fact that God says in Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
The law is not of faith, Gal 3:12
Yet SDA doctrine denies Gal 3:12 and contradicts it by saying that the law is a crucial part of faith.
But that thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" is God's example of works that shows our faith. That thief believed on Jesus.
When Jesus was asked what works we should do he answered "believe on him whom He hath sent", John 6:29
True.
And the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.
Hence if we're determining righteousness by works of the law then these works reveal that we do not have faith.
But if we continue to believe on Jesus and keep this commandment to believe on him, without spot, blameless (1Tim 6:14) then these works of believing on Jesus shows our faith.
Hence Christians should beware the leaven (doctrines of righteousness by works of the law, Matt 16:12) of legalists, as a little leaven leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.
Yes, slaves to sin, do sin.
How does one sin?
You bring yourself under the law, as whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
Once you are under the law then you can be charged with transgression of it (sin, 1John 3:4). Just one offence makes you guilty of all the law, James 2:10. Hence we see that all legalists are sinners/workers of iniquity.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner
Are Christians under the law?
Answer: No (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).
So can Christians be charged with sin?
Answer: No.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Rom 4:15
because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression./Sin
The law can condemn when you are under the law.
Whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
SDA doctrine is a lukewarm mix of works of the law, with grace. Hence we see the same old condemnation under the law as was in the OT.
SDA's forget Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh (self-righteousness by works of the law), but according to the Spirit (believing on Jesus, thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5).
SDA doctrine preaches condemnation in spite of the fact that God says there is no condemnation in Christ, Rom 8:1
SDA doctrine continues to charge Christians with sin in spite of the fact that God says in Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
The law is not of faith, Gal 3:12
Yet SDA doctrine denies Gal 3:12 and contradicts it by saying that the law is a crucial part of faith.
But that thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" is God's example of works that shows our faith. That thief believed on Jesus.
When Jesus was asked what works we should do he answered "believe on him whom He hath sent", John 6:29
True.
And the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.
Hence if we're determining righteousness by works of the law then these works reveal that we do not have faith.
But if we continue to believe on Jesus and keep this commandment to believe on him, without spot, blameless (1Tim 6:14) then these works of believing on Jesus shows our faith.
Hence Christians should beware the leaven (doctrines of righteousness by works of the law, Matt 16:12) of legalists, as a little leaven leavens the whole lump, Gal 5:9.
Gods command
be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go. 8"This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.
be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go. 8"This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.
H
Christians are not under the law anyway, (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9)
Instead we keep Christ's commandments, 1John 3:23
1: Believe on Jesus (thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5)
2: Love one another.
And what determines whether we have done our best?
How is our best measured?
This is a very ambiguous notion that is confusing and it also gives us no confidence at all if we will be saved as we do not know what the measure is that determines whether we are attaining our best to obey the law.
If such an ambiguous gospel was true then those with death bed salvation are truly blessed over those who live on as Christians who would have no idea whether they have attained their best to be considered righteous and perfect.
Instead we keep Christ's commandments, 1John 3:23
1: Believe on Jesus (thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5)
2: Love one another.
And what determines whether we have done our best?
How is our best measured?
This is a very ambiguous notion that is confusing and it also gives us no confidence at all if we will be saved as we do not know what the measure is that determines whether we are attaining our best to obey the law.
If such an ambiguous gospel was true then those with death bed salvation are truly blessed over those who live on as Christians who would have no idea whether they have attained their best to be considered righteous and perfect.