When does the rapture occur?

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U

Ukorin

Guest
Well, Ukorin,
What is your proof of all that?
How are you going to fulfill a physical prophecy spiritually?

So you promise Johnny an apple, then you give the apple to George so he can eat the apple spiritually for a while, before you physically give the apple to Johnny?
Now I shall invite you for a pot roast dinner, & serve you some spiritual pot roast & spiritual mashed potatoes when you come over.
Your *example/attempt at a straw man* is too sarcastic to debate.

Instead, I will simply give a second viewpoint for this doctrine, and overview.

The Pharisees and Saducees thought Christ would come and physically conquer. They were neglecting that Christ would first conquer the spiritual things (sin and the 2nd death) and then come again to conquer the physical things (the world and physical death).

They expected a kingdom on earth, but Christ first set up a kingdom 'not of this world'.

Don't simply reject this. Please do study it.
I know you have the Spirit in you to discern these truths,
and a good head on your shoulders to have understanding.

Want a seperate thread to discuss it more fully? I've taken you off-topic for this thread.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Why do we need to know these words unless we are seeking physical evidence or have doubts. From a Pentecostal to some form of Baptist, you just know and don't need Man's synopsis on it.
Then why are you posting here, practicing the forbidden [FONT=arial, sans-serif]synopsis-izaton[/FONT] on it? When will lay down your synopsisizer? You beez a man, Kerry? Are you not synopsis-izing a tad?

Some form of babtist? Like a foot-washing babtist?

Why we gots to know these words?
There is this thing about being a noble Berean, about studying to show self approved, and all that -- it doesn't all come by osmosis.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
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Your *example/attempt at a straw man* is too sarcastic to debate.
Well forget my attempt at humor, and just prove your claim Ukorin, or retract.

You don't go anywhere by telling someone they need to go study. If you make a claim, you are on the hook for the proof. So are you up to it?

I think your claim was that the same prophecy has dual fulfillment:
1) spiritual in the Church,
2) physical in the millennium.

So lets see the proof for that onel
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
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Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!

The Jewish audience was not rebuked for thinking that included physical benefits as promised by the prophets. They are not rebuked for expecting physical benefits; indeed the Lord Jesus showed that He could deliver that by healing, working miracles, and multiplying food. Their problem was that they did not repent. They did not change mind from disbelief to belief in Him. Instead, they rejected their Messiah & their leaders delivered Him up to be crucified, the Jerusalem mob crying for the same thing.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I think you better go back and study Mat 27:52-53 some more.
No, actually it is actually talking about how when Christ ascended, He bound the enemy or the powers of darkness. How so? Well, our first clue to this fact is to look at the parallel reference of this passage located in Judges chapter five.


Judges 5:12 - "Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead your captives captive, you son of Abinoam."


Now, without boring you with all the details, to make a long story short, if you were to read Judged chapter 5, you would find out that Barak was leading his enemies captive and not his friends. To put it to you another way, the moment a true Christian is born again and then dedicates their life to Christ, they are then no longer Christ's enemy. For those in Abraham's bosom are God's elect or chosen who had put their trust in God to redeem them of their sins (See Luke 16:19-31).


As a matter of fact, Gill's Exposition of the Bible says this...
"He led captivity captive; which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil, who leads men captive at his will, and is therefore called captivity, and his principalities and powers, whom Christ has spoiled and triumphed over;"​


And 2nd Timothy says this...


2 Timothy 2:26 - "And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. For when Christ had raised from the dead he put all things including the principalities and powers of darkness under his feet."


Therefore, the word "captivity" is a reference to Satan leading people captive to his will and lets us know the true context or meaning behind Ephesians 4:8.


For when Christ had risen from the dead, He put all things including the principalities and powers of darkness under his feet.


Ephesians 1:20-23 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."


The 144K are not the Nation of Israel. They are descendants of the 12 Tribes. They have been scattered across the globe. They are Jesus' Elect, the ones He discusses in Mat 24. They are the ones He gathers when He returns.
I never said that the 144,000 is the Nation of Israel.
However, the 144,000 are exclusively Jewish, though. They are not Gentiles.

Physical return? As opposed to some return in the air where He doesn't touch down? I suggest you go back and read 1 Thes 4:14 and pick up the identity of the one who is returning. Hint - It isn't the Son.
No, the Scriptures say we will meet the Lord in the air.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Feast of Trumpets is called the Last Trump (For there are three shofarim or horns:


#1. The first trump is Pentecost,
#2. The last trump is the Feast of Trumpets,
#3. The great trump is the Day of Atonement.


This is Jewish teaching (of which Paul would have known about).


Anyways, here are some differences between the two trumpets.



  • The trumpet of the church age is called the "trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The trumpet of Revelation is the trumpet of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15).


  • The trumpet of the church age is singular. There is no mention of a series of trumpets. The trumpet of Revelation is the seventh of seven. The phrase, last trump, has a different significance.


  • In 1 Thessalonians 4, the trumpets calls the dead to life. The seventh trumpet of Revelation occurs after a resurrection occurs (Revelation 11:12).


  • The trumpet of the church age comes as a blessing. The trumpet of Revelation comes with judgment and is called the third woe (Revelation 11:14).


  • The trump of the church age sounds in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52). The seventh trumpet of Revelation sounds for "days" (Revelation 10:7 HCSB).


John's Revelation was not written yet. So for Paul to tell them about something they would not understand would be contrary to his own words. For Paul said, I would rather speak five with words with the understanding than five thousand words with no understanding.

~ PLEASE DO NOT MISS THIS ~​



Revelation 6:17 KJV begins the Wrath and Revelation 15:1 KJV tells us that the vials or bowl judgments (Which are after the Trumpet Judgments) are the seven last plagues & the return of Christ which concludes the wrath of God.


And 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV says we are not appointed unto wrath.​

I didn't say this to imply I was an expert. I am just a humble servant. I said this to highlight the futility of trying to change the mind of those who Paul teaches us about in 2 Thes 2:11.

God Bless!!
Uh, you really think I would follow any political figure who is a man of peace who helps tons of people but doesn't know the Word of God? A man who will enforce the Mark of the Beast and will be involved in helping the Jews to rebuild their Temple? I think not. It will never be the popular guy in the spotlight who is doing good or God's will. It's always the little guy who is suffering for Christ and his kingdom. The little guy who is suffering with other believers for the sake of Jesus Christ.

Sorry, my friend. I won't be here upon this Earth so as to deal with him. I will be with God before that happens.
 
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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
They expected a kingdom on earth, but Christ first set up a kingdom 'not of this world'.

Don't simply reject this. Please do study it.
I know you have the Spirit in you to discern these truths,
and a good head on your shoulders to have understanding.

Want a seperate thread to discuss it more fully? I've taken you off-topic for this thread.
Ukorin, I wrote a master's thesis on the Kingdom Announcement of Mat 4:17. I went over the background from the OT throughly. Note that you left out a crucial word on the kingdom in John. That word is NOW. "My Kingdom is not NOW . . . ."

If you haven't studied all the references to the kingdom, I suggest you do that before you continue on this topic. And check it in the original languages.

They reason why they did not get their kingdom was that they did not repent. Their conception of the Kingdom as the Davidic Kingdom promised in the OT was never corrected as wrong. "On earth" is not the same as "of earth." There was nothing wrong with expecting a Kingdom on earth, for that was what the Lord promised to Israel. See Daniel 2; especially 2:44.
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!

The Jewish audience was not rebuked for thinking that included physical benefits as promised by the prophets. They are not rebuked for expecting physical benefits; indeed the Lord Jesus showed that He could deliver that by healing, working miracles, and multiplying food. Their problem was that they did not repent. They did not change mind from disbelief to belief in Him. Instead, they rejected their Messiah & their leaders delivered Him up to be crucified, the Jerusalem mob crying for the same thing.
Exactly! They neglected the duality of Salvation. It is both physical AND spiritual.

I cannot post 2/3 of the book of Hebrews, and OT prophets, in a thread about rapture.

You have gotten me excited! I will start a new thread so we can discuss this appropriately.

The doctrine is called 'Classical Zionism' and is based in Historical Pre-millennialism, and fits with Progressive Dispensationalism.
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
Ukorin, I wrote a master's thesis on the Kingdom Announcement of Mat 4:17. I went over the background from the OT throughly. Note that you left out a crucial word on the kingdom in John. That word is NOW. "My Kingdom is not NOW . . . ."

If you haven't studied all the references to the kingdom, I suggest you do that before you continue on this topic. And check it in the original languages.

They reason why they did not get their kingdom was that they did not repent. Their conception of the Kingdom as the Davidic Kingdom promised in the OT was never corrected as wrong. "On earth" is not the same as "of earth." There was nothing wrong with expecting a Kingdom on earth, for that was what the Lord promised to Israel. See Daniel 2; especially 2:44.
I have every kingdom passage highlighted in my Bible, and notes on each usage.
I studied under Dr. Tom Davis and Jimmy DeYoung (both tend toward your view). I have not completed my Masters, but I'm getting there.

I understand your point with "Now", but we disagree on what it means. I understand that the Kingdom is now, because it is spiritually existent. You believe the Kingdom was now, but then was postponed by the Jews rejection.

I agree with your point, but I don't believe that the spiritual aspect of the Kingdom was postponed by the Jewish rejection,
only the physical.

Again, we come to the thoughts of 'either/or' vs 'both/and'.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
1,826
17
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I have every kingdom passage highlighted in my Bible, and notes on each usage.
I studied under Dr. Tom Davis and Jimmy DeYoung (both tend toward your view). I have not completed my Masters, but I'm getting there.

I understand your point with "Now", but we disagree on what it means. I understand that the Kingdom is now, because it is spiritually existent. You believe the Kingdom was now, but then was postponed by the Jews rejection.

I agree with your point, but I don't believe that the spiritual aspect of the Kingdom was postponed by the Jewish rejection,
only the physical.

Again, we come to the thoughts of 'either/or' vs 'both/and'.
Jesus did not fail because the Jews rejected Him - That was the plan - God's plan. He very clearly said that He told parables so that they would not turn back and be healed.

“To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. [SUP]14 [/SUP]In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.’

But we must also realize that He explained the parables to the apostles/disciples and that those explanations were written in Scripture. Although, even with the explanation, I must admit, there is still debate over parables - so perhaps my point is rendered false.:)


[SUP]19 [/SUP]Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Why did Jesus tell them to drink His blood and eat His flesh? If He had explained it more clearly, they would not think He was saying something that was repulsive and a direct violation of the Law as delivered by Moses - From God. Of course, I realize that it was not one statement or action that caused them to crucify Jesus, but it was the compilation.
 
U

Ukorin

Guest
Jesus did not fail because the Jews rejected Him - That was the plan - God's plan. He very clearly said that He told parables so that they would not turn back and be healed.

“To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. [SUP]14 [/SUP]In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.’

But we must also realize that He explained the parables to the apostles/disciples and that those explanations were written in Scripture. Although, even with the explanation, I must admit, there is still debate over parables - so perhaps my point is rendered false.:)


[SUP]19 [/SUP]Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Why did Jesus tell them to drink His blood and eat His flesh? If He had explained it more clearly, they would not think He was saying something that was repulsive and a direct violation of the Law as delivered by Moses - From God. Of course, I realize that it was not one statement or action that caused them to crucify Jesus, but it was the compilation.
I agree that it was God's plan from the beginning,
but the understanding of postponement is that God's plan is rational and organized, and that God had a reason for doing things the exact way He did. In this case, it was to prove a point to the natural born people of Israel, and make His glory known to all nations.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
The view of my old friends, Dr. Davis and DeYoung will be totally debunked in a few short yrs. After the Man of sin reaffirms a peace treaty and everyone will know that the imminent return of Christ is wrong. Their view of salvation is wrong also, a "faith only" does not save. Repent trust and obey is the real way of salvation. The Word of Life international is destroying the Church. It is part of the end time deception. Sorry, but that is the truth. I do enjoy my old friend Jimmy DeYoung's "Prophecy today" for updates on Israel. Love to all, Hoffco, Doug Roberts
 
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Hashe

Guest
ME thinks most missed the rapture while they argued on CC.
 
H

Hoffco

Guest
LOL, It is sad to say, but 95% of professed Christians will MISS the rapture. :( Love to all, Hoffco
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Well, it's not even really about Pre-Trib Rapture (although I believe that is the correct Biblical view of Scripture), it is about being ready for His return at any moment. The Lord's return to take us home can be 5 minutes for now. The Lord's return to take us home can be tomorrow or next week. The Lord's return to take us home can be 5 years from now. The point that Jesus wanted to stress to us is that we have to always be watching, and waiting for Him and always be ready. For He will come in a day or hour in which we will not know. For surely it does not hurt to be prepared and on the look out for the Lord (As the Scriptures say). For I would rather be ready to meet the Lord at any moment (For I do not know the time of my death) instead of thinking I know when He will return and not be ready for Him. In other words, be prepared for the Lord always and be watchful for His return to take you home.
 
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Hoffco

Guest
I am afraid the pre tribers have made a whipping stick of the Pre. Tri, immnent rapture. And Christians are not buying it anymore. They are complaining , if it is imminent, why is it taking so long? I think the point we should be making is "prepare to meet your God" at any moment; I need to know that my life could end in my next breath, and I will ,meet God, am I ready? It is at an UNKNOWN time, just be ready now, to die. The idea it is before the tribulation is getting to be a sick joke. ?Christians are being persecuted, killed, world wide, NOW. Christians are giving up on their faith, because of this FALSE hope of "perhaps today". We have had tribulation for 2,000yrs. Prepare to die for Christ. Love to all. Hoffco Ps . I live for Christ as if it was my last day. I am a bold witness, I exhort sinners to repent trust and obey Jesus and be ready today to meet Jesus in Heave, maybe today.!
 
Mar 4, 2013
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The Bible doesn't give us a date or time. Why is this being questioned? Is it entertaining? We are to look for the signs given, and we all know that it is close. Look up for your redemption draws nigh. The scripture clearly says that Jesus comes in the clouds after the tribulation by Jesus' own words. In the same speech He gives description of the signs we should watch for. Is that so hard to comprehend?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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And 1 Thessalonians 5:9 KJV says we are not appointed unto wrath.
Do you think that the only wrath of God's wrath to come is during the Tribulation?? First you have no passage that specifically locates any wrath of God DURING the Tribulation. Secondly, you left out an important clue about the wrath in the passage you cited. What does the rest of the verse say?
1 Thessalonians 5:9 NKJV

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ...

The above refers to final condemnation wrath vs. salvation. God's wrath does not apply only to the wicked who are alive during the Tribulation. Rather, it applies to all wicked throughout the ages when He judges.

Colossians 3:6 NKJV

Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience

Do you think this passage is only discussing Tribulation era wrath and that the wicked who died before the Tribulation get a free pass from God's Wrath??? Are we to take all these passages to mean Tribulation wrath or Final judgment wrath???


Hebrews 3:11 NKJV

So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' "

Ephesians 5:6 NKJV

Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.



Romans 13:4 NKJV

For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Romans 9:22 NKJV

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Romans 5:9 NKJV

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Romans 4:15 NKJV

because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 3:5 NKJV

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.)

Romans 2:5 NKJV

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

Romans 1:18 NKJV

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

John 3:36 NKJV

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

You see, God's wrath doesn't pertain to just a select 3.5 or 7 year period you think of as the Tribulation while the rest of the 6,000 + years of wickedness gets away without facing the Wrath.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

Perhaps someone will explain to you the difference between eisegesis & exegesis."
"Apostasy" does not mean a physical departure.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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What you are doing is simple logical fallacy.
It's the same fallacious principle you are using to challenge only one kingdom.

You mean you don't know you exist because scripture doesn't mention you?
It may not mention you, but it mentions me every time it mentions the body of Christ.

You haven't proven what scripture does not say. Let's see your proof that scripture says there is but one Kingdom of God.

Prove or retract.

Prove it. . .

Give your proof or retract.

Prove it. Prove that you are not right now maklng an unauthorized human assumption.

Now you prove it, or retract.
When you prove that God does not have two noses.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
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Previously addressed, above.
Study it.
It was shown to you that eph 2:6 was a figure of speech, showing your transition from sinner to saints....from being dead then raised up to sit with Christ...

No, you just don't believe it.
I believe the verse is encouraging figure of speech.

Both Mt 6:20 and Eph 2:6, 1:20 are actual existing spiritual reality, not just figures,
as the OT sacrifices were figures of Christ's sacrifice, but were not the spiritual reality of it.
Eph 2:6 was shown to you..
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

another figure of speech...what bank do you lay up your treasures in heaven? or do you have a lock on your treasure chest? another figure of speech of rewards...

You could really use some good Biblical teaching.
Who do not want a good biblical teaching...You on the other hand still need to go back to basic

Agreed. . .and it was set up at Christ's first coming during the last Roman empire (Da 2:44),
and lasts forever, throughout eternity.
Those in Christ are in that kingdom now.
Please study Dan 7 about the fourth beast...

the question is when will Christ delivered the Kingdom to God, even the Father....