When does the rapture occur?

[Richie_2uk]

Now Can you all see how arguments are started? because we all have our own views and thoughts and our own explanations. Why can't we Just for once in our lifetime. Just accept what it says in the word of God? maybe, just maybe, we can at least try get on without arguing? Just a thought! You can see in plain sight, how the enemy is laughing at you all. He probably think, They fighting over Gods word, and I didn't have to do anything. Why Give the enemy this satisfaction?

It says what it says in the bible, so who are we ALL, to say you are right and he or she is wrong? when clearly we all will never fully understand the word of God, But we can accept it, and try live by it.

We all know that you like to point score, and tell people to listen to you only. This is not what God wants us to do, He wants us to Follow him. The way you all going, fighting and arguing. and pointing the finger. it clearly shows its not God you are following............... God bless you all. Learn to get on, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, so lets all be Christ like.

 

[Hoffco]

To PlainWord, your problem is, you place the Rapture at the end of the mill. NO way, the rapture is before the Mill..Love Hoffco

 

[tourist]

To PlainWord, your problem is, you place the Rapture at the end of the mill. NO way, the rapture is before the Mill..Love Hoffco

Before the start of the millennium. After the millennium is the judgment only as there is absolutely no mention of anything remotely resembling the rapture. The rapture takes place at the sound of the last trump, at least that is what the bible says, and I take that as fact.

 

[Hoffco]

Sorry Richie, it seems that you don't recall how Paul had to rebuke Peter ,for the whole world to read about ,IN THE BIBLE. I think, it OK, for iron to sharp iron, on CC Chat, for the world to see, in love we correct each other, I did NOT throw mud, I entreated in LOVE, and so did, Plain truth. LOVE Hoffco

 

[Jason0047]

To Jason, a correction, The wrath of God did not come at Rev, 6: 17: It was postponed until Rev, 8:6. The whole ch.7 is parenthetical, added to explain the 144,000 Jews sealed, and the newly raptured Church in Heaven, THE Multitude of ch. 7. Raptured at the 6th seal, Not at Rev. 4:1. . AND the wrath ENDS at Rev,11:15 When Jesus takes over the kingdoms of this world, at His 2nd COMING to RULE this worlds system, for 1,000yrs. . BUT, the time of wrath is REPEATED, again, with the BOWLS; And Jesus 2nd coming is repeated again after the BOWLS. then, the millennium happens, then, the last battle, and then, the wicked dead are raised and then,Lake of fire, then, the NEW Heavens and earth, then, Forever! Love to all, Hoffco

Yes, I known for a long time that Revelation 6 is a summary or break down of the events. However, I don't always look at the events described in Scripture as being written as if chronology or time was unimportant to God. Granted, there is an important reason why God wrote the Holy Scriptures in the order that He did, but I don't believe He would want us to ignore how things happened chronologically, though. In other words, I strive to look at Scripture verses from a chronological perspective, too. Revelation 6:17 if placed on a chronological time line would be the first mention of that event. It is not tied down to existing within a summary. The event takes place in an actual future point in real time. This verse is the first to speak of such a point in time.

 

[Hoffco]

To Tourist, That "last trump" can be a bit, confusing, I can not take it tooo seriously. as it seems to confuse the whole rapture timing. ??? I am sure. God does NOT want us to be So sure of our own position, that we lose fellowship over it, after all, we are to love each other,! It is those who lack LOVE, that throw the mud. Sorry, a rebuke is always in order,"exhort, rebuke ,with all long suffering and doctrine" LOVE, Hoffco

 

[Richie_2uk]

Sorry Richie, it seems that you don't recall how Paul had to rebuke Peter ,for the whole world to read about ,IN THE BIBLE. I think, it OK, for iron to sharp iron, on CC Chat, for the world to see, in love we correct each other, I did NOT throw mud, I entreated in LOVE, and so did, Plain truth. LOVE Hoffco

Hoffco... But everyone is not correcting each other in love. they are point scoring, thinking they know everything they say is right. How can we all correct each other in love, when it clearly shows that we ALL dont fully understand. Yes you maybe correcting, but you are only correcting them, to what you believe to be true. and by your own understanding. I am not rebuking, but just trying to calm the waters in here. We all have our own theories, thoughts and understandings about the bible, and the way everyone ,is So called correcting each other in love, well, no offence to everyone, you are all point scoring more than so called correcting in love.

Sorry but this is what I see. Why can't we all admit we don't know or fully understand the bible, and do what it says in Matthew 7: 7. Trust in God's understanding, and seek the knowledge of what things say in the bible. and ask God himself, for the true meaning of things? Instead we all, make our own understanding on the bible.

This is not a rebuke or having a go, just I would like to see people trusting In God more for true understanding, rather leaning on our own. Just trying to calm the waters in here in brotherly love. God bless..........

 

[Jason0047]

I spent an entire two months praying and comparing Scripture with Scripture (and I kept re-arranging my time line to match up what Scripture said) to create a chronology that would harmonize Revelation and the Olivet Discourse.

Here is that extensive chronology I created with commentaries:

ECT Chronology of Revelation & the Olivet Discourse, etc. - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More

 

[Hoffco]

to Jason, I try to clear my mind, then sit and read a big section, and try to see the over all picture a fresh, this is how the Spirit speaks to me, ONLY thru the WORD. If we differ, ONE of us ,is wrong, BUT,PEOPLE, we still Love each other,! LOVE? hoffco

 

[Jason0047]

to Jason, I try to clear my mind, then sit and read a big section, and try to see the over all picture a fresh, this is how the Spirit speaks to me, ONLY thru the WORD. If we differ, ONE of us ,is wrong, BUT,PEOPLE, we still Love each other,! LOVE? hoffco

Yes, without love we are nothing. I agree. I never take these types of debates personally. In fact, I am commanded by God to love everyone. I am to pray and or to do good towards my enemies. So yes, we might disagree on the time when the Lord will first come for His saints, but I believe I can debate such a thing in a loving and truthful manner. But I do believe it is an important topic to discuss, though. For the person who does not believe Jesus is coming at any moment but at a different time that they say is ignoring the Bible and taking the chance of being left behind with all the other unbelievers. I can imagine that missing out on such an event, would make one feel extremely shameful before the Lord (For not believing His Word). I don't want that to happen to folks here (Because I do care about them in love).

 

[Jason0047]

EXACTLY!!! Then please recognize the verses that immediately proceed 1 Thes 5:1-3. I'm talking about 1 Thes 4:13-18. There is no segway, no transition from 1 Thes 4:13-18 to 1 Thes 5:1-3. Paul is giving the context of 1 Thes 4 as being "THE DAY OF THE LORD." The DAY OF THE LORD does not begin with some so-called Rapture. It does not start before the Tribulation!!!!

The Day of the Lord, lasts 1,000 years and it concludes with this from 2 Peter 3.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

The Day of the Lord that Paul discusses is the same Day of the Lord that Peter discusses which is the same Day of the Lord foretold by David and most of the OT prophets. Peter also calls the Day of the Lord, the "DAY OF GOD." Who does Paul identify as the one coming in 1 Thes 4:14? It isn't Christ.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

GOD WILL BRING those who sleep in Jesus!!!! It does not say Jesus is bringing and it doesn't say God will send with Jesus. It says GOD WILL BRING. Therefore, it is God doing the bringing and it is happening on the Day of the Lord and not before. Paul even uses the same language as PETER. See it??

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

Peter refers to it as "A thief in the Night" and so does Paul.

No, if you were to read 1 Thessalonians 5:1 again, you would notice that it says, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. In other words, Paul is changing the topic to talk about the end of the world. For he says he has no need to write unto them about it. Um, why didn't Paul say this before he started talking about the Rapture at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4?

For Genesis 1:14 lets us know that the sun, the moon, and the stars were for identifying times, seasons, and signs.

"...the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3).

In other words, 1 Thessalonians 5:1 begins a change in conversation. It is talking about the End Times (of which Paul said that he did not need to write to them about).

 

[Jason0047]

For the person who does not believe Jesus is coming at any moment but at a different time that they say is ignoring the Bible and taking the chance of being left behind with all the other unbelievers. I can imagine that missing out on such an event, would make one feel extremely shameful before the Lord (For not believing His Word). I don't want that to happen to folks here (Because I do care about them in love).

Have no idea what I am talking about? Check out this short animated video here:

[video=youtube;pIj47X960pw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIj47X960pw[/video]

 

[Hoffco]

Yes, without love we are nothing. I agree. I never take these types of debates personally. In fact, I am commanded by God to love everyone. I am to pray and or to do good towards my enemies. So yes, we might disagree on the time when the Lord will first come for His saints, but I believe I can debate such a thing in a loving and truthful manner. But I do believe it is an important topic to discuss, though. For the person who does not believe Jesus is coming at any moment but at a different time that they say is ignoring the Bible and taking the chance of being left behind with all the other unbelievers. I can imagine that missing out on such an event, would make one feel extremely shameful before the Lord (For not believing His Word). I don't want that to happen to folks here (Because I do care about them in love).

Sorry, BUT, your last 4 lines are totally confusing to me, ???? I will not read into it ,anytime. ARE you saying??? That a person could be lost, if they don't believe that the rapture could happen at any moment? Please restate you last 4 line ,clearly, what are you saying.? I read you blog and find it very informative, very well done, but, I still can see, you are messed up the time sequence of REV.. Love Hoffco

 

[Elin]

I didn't make an assertion about how many kingdoms of God there are in the Bible; so I have nothing to prove. It is not fallacious to require one who makes an assertion to prove it. Talking about noses proves nothing.

It proves as much as your assertion that Scripture does not state only one kingdom.

Proof or retraction!

When you prove God does not have two noses.

 

[Elin]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

What is your proof of that?

The Greek word means departure. That it may mean literal departure is supported by the Liddell & Scott huge Greek Lexicon and by the usage in the Dormition of Mary.

Now if you have some proof that apostasia may not mean literal departure, bring it forth & prove it.

When you prove God does not have two noses.

Your poor apprehension of the NT corresponds with your surly attitude.

 

[Jason0047]

Sorry, BUT, your last 4 lines are totally confusing to me, ???? I will not read into it ,anytime. ARE you saying??? That a person could be lost, if they don't believe that the rapture could happen at any moment? Please restate you last 4 line ,clearly, what are you saying.? I read you blog and find it very informative, very well done, but, I still can see, you are messed up the time sequence of REV.. Love Hoffco

No, I don't believe you lost your salvation just because you were left behind. However, no doubt the true believer will be very repentant towards God for not believing Him, though. What I was saying is that those believers who do not beliieve the Lord will come at any moment (as the Scriptures say) will be left behind with the unbelieving world. Physically they will be left behind and be cut off with being amongst unbelievers instead of being with His saints at that present moment in time. This is what I believe Jesus meant, when He said,

"The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:46).

For there is no mention that this is an unforgivable sin.

 

[Hoffco]

SORRY, to Elin and Atwood, you both lost me in the dust, wisdom or whatever it is. But back to the discussion, to Jason, The book of Revelation is the KEY to understanding prophecy. The "trumpets" and the "bowls" are parallel; But, the seals are not parallel with them. The seals are Church and world history, the beginning of "birth pains". The first half of the 70th wk. of Daniel is PEACE. It could come very soon , if Israel makes war hard enough to destroy some terrorist groups. they could cry for a peace treaty with Israel, not just a "cease fire" but peace for 7yrs. so they can salvage themselves for a last try at destroying Israel and USA.

 

[PlainWord]

To Jason, a correction, The wrath of God did not come at Rev, 6: 17: It was postponed until Rev, 8:6. The whole ch.7 is parenthetical, added to explain the 144,000 Jews sealed, and the newly raptured Church in Heaven, THE Multitude of ch. 7. Raptured at the 6th seal, Not at Rev. 4:1. . AND the wrath ENDS at Rev,11:15 When Jesus takes over the kingdoms of this world, at His 2nd COMING to RULE this worlds system, for 1,000yrs. . BUT, the time of wrath is REPEATED, again, with the BOWLS; And Jesus 2nd coming is repeated again after the BOWLS. then, the millennium happens, then, the last battle, and then, the wicked dead are raised and then,Lake of fire, then, the NEW Heavens and earth, then, Forever! Love to all, Hoffco

What makes you think the Great Multitude are Raptured? Nothing tells us this. We are told we will suffer tribulation, persecution and death and this is even before the "Great Tribulation" where everything ramps up.

The GM are seen crying, thirsty and hungry. Can you tell me what it means symbolically to be spiritually thirsty and hungry?? I can tell you, it ain't raptured.

 

[Hoffco]

Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!

NO WAY! I believe Lk.12:46 is, Hell, for the worthless servant, he is a Judas, never saved. Loved Hoffco

 

[PlainWord]

No, if you were to read 1 Thessalonians 5:1 again, you would notice that it says, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. In other words, Paul is changing the topic to talk about the end of the world. For he says he has no need to write unto them about it. Um, why didn't Paul say this before he started talking about the Rapture at the end of 1 Thessalonians 4?

For Genesis 1:14 lets us know that the sun, the moon, and the stars were for identifying times, seasons, and signs.

"...the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3).

In other words, 1 Thessalonians 5:1 begins a change in conversation. It is talking about the End Times (of which Paul said that he did not need to write to them about).

Believe that if you wish, but you are wrong. Further, nothing in 1 Thes 4 gives it a pre-Trib timing so you are speculating about that too. You don't even have the correct member of the Trinity identified, but that's besides the point. People can translate and alter the scripture all they want but it doesn't mean what they think will come to pass.

The Rapture doctrine teaches, "PEACE and SAFETY" when God has not told us there will be peace and safety. Sound familiar? It should. It was the same thing the prophets were telling Israel just before Babylon took them away captive and now history repeats. Pre-Tribbers preach peace and safety as if by saying it they can make it so. God teaches the opposite. So the slaughter is coming and so few are ready.

Compare Ezek 13:

2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel who prophesy, and say to those who prophesy out of their own heart, 'Hear the word of the Lord!' " 3 Thus says the Lord God: "Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 O Israel, your prophets are like foxes in the deserts. 5 You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the Lord. 6 They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, 'Thus says the Lord!' But the Lord has not sent them; yet they hope that the word may be confirmed. 7 Have you not seen a futile vision, and have you not spoken false divination? You say, 'The Lord says,' but I have not spoken." 8 Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Because you have spoken nonsense and envisioned lies, therefore I am indeed against you," says the Lord God. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who envision futility and who divine lies; they shall not be in the assembly of My people, nor be written in the record of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord God. 10 Because, indeed, because they have seduced My people, saying, 'Peace!' when there is no peace-

to Matthew 24:

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

A slaughter of Jews and Christians is coming. But many are teaching PEACE when there is NO PEACE. There is no safety. There is only deception, persecution and death. There is no rapture lesson taught here yet some teach it based on a false timing of 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 where neither passage gives the historical context with absolute clarity.