When does the rapture occur?
- Thread starter Elin
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Margaret McDonald, a fifteen-year-old girl living in Scotland, experienced a "vision" of the end of the world in 1820. In McDonald's vision, the chosen few are saved from a "purifying" fire. This is not exactly the disappearance in the middle of the day that popular culture views as the Rapture, but an early prototype. Not everyone leapt to follow her view — and in fact, several contemporary religious leaders deemed her visions demonic.
Meanwhile, London-born evangelist John Darby and members of his flock, the Irish-born Plymouth Brethren, popularized and molded the idea of Judeo-Christians being removed from the Earth, prior to an unknown period of strife. But McDonald had no influence on Darby's views, since Darby apparently espoused this idea as early as 1827. But McDonald's visions, and their later publication, no doubt further popularized the idea of the Rapture in Europe. The Very Short History of the Rapture
Meanwhile, London-born evangelist John Darby and members of his flock, the Irish-born Plymouth Brethren, popularized and molded the idea of Judeo-Christians being removed from the Earth, prior to an unknown period of strife. But McDonald had no influence on Darby's views, since Darby apparently espoused this idea as early as 1827. But McDonald's visions, and their later publication, no doubt further popularized the idea of the Rapture in Europe. The Very Short History of the Rapture
Good morning Ukorin,
Well, if you have marked all the passages, then you are doing it the right way. And then you will come to your conclusions by comparing scripture with scripture.
I don't know Tom David or DeYoung.
What I mean by "now" is not realized eschatology. What I referred to was the word Christ emphasized before Pilate, how His kingdom is not NOW of this world; the "now" seems to be ignored by some, as if He were claiming that by definition the Kingdom was never to be on earth.
My POV is standard Dispensationalism as in Ryrie's book, Dispensationalism Today. I have suspected that when a faculty member comes out saying "I am a Progressive Dispensationalist" that means mostly that while he is on the faculty of a Dispensational Seminary or Bible College; he really is not a dispensationalist, but wants to keep his job and be able to say "I am a dispensationalist."
Well, if you have marked all the passages, then you are doing it the right way. And then you will come to your conclusions by comparing scripture with scripture.
I don't know Tom David or DeYoung.
What I mean by "now" is not realized eschatology. What I referred to was the word Christ emphasized before Pilate, how His kingdom is not NOW of this world; the "now" seems to be ignored by some, as if He were claiming that by definition the Kingdom was never to be on earth.
My POV is standard Dispensationalism as in Ryrie's book, Dispensationalism Today. I have suspected that when a faculty member comes out saying "I am a Progressive Dispensationalist" that means mostly that while he is on the faculty of a Dispensational Seminary or Bible College; he really is not a dispensationalist, but wants to keep his job and be able to say "I am a dispensationalist."
Now if you have some proof that McDonald advocated Pre-tribism, I would like to see the proof.
"Popularized the idea of the Rapture"? The Rapture is fact of the Bible (1 Th 4:17). Unless one is truly obtuse in the head, the debate should not be about the fact of the rapture, but the timing of the Rapture.
There is also the Jesuit theory, as if some Jesuit came up with pre-trib rapture in a conspiratorial attempt to discredit opponents.
But the preTrib doctrine has been found in a document going back to the early middle ages.
U
Good morning brother!
I was thinking of a different 'now' statement. I totally agree with your interpretation of his conversation with Pilate.
I don't think that PD really conflicts with traditional Dispensationalism, except for the views of Adam's headship, the relationship between Israel and the Church, and the ability for a possible mid/post trib rather than a strict pre trib.
BTW, I did create a separate thread for this topic, so we don't derail this one.
I was thinking of a different 'now' statement. I totally agree with your interpretation of his conversation with Pilate.
I don't think that PD really conflicts with traditional Dispensationalism, except for the views of Adam's headship, the relationship between Israel and the Church, and the ability for a possible mid/post trib rather than a strict pre trib.
BTW, I did create a separate thread for this topic, so we don't derail this one.
Re: No Rapture in the Olivet Discourse
I don't know the method, since the text doesn't say. Mat 24 has nobody rising in the air to a meeting with the Lord in the air. Neither do the descriptions of the Rapture have any angels doing any gathering.
Now if Capt Kirk didn't need any angels doing any gathering when it was like "Beam me up, Scotty," why should the rapture require any angels? The Klingons might use angels, but we don't go with any Klingons.
I don't know the method, since the text doesn't say. Mat 24 has nobody rising in the air to a meeting with the Lord in the air. Neither do the descriptions of the Rapture have any angels doing any gathering.
Now if Capt Kirk didn't need any angels doing any gathering when it was like "Beam me up, Scotty," why should the rapture require any angels? The Klingons might use angels, but we don't go with any Klingons.
I didn't make an assertion about how many kingdoms of God there are in the Bible; so I have nothing to prove. It is not fallacious to require one who makes an assertion to prove it. Talking about noses proves nothing.
Whoever up & says there is only one Kingdom of God in the Bible, is responsible for proving it -- just up & saying it won't convince the readers. So if you assert there is but one kingdom, you are encouraged to prove it, or say like "I was just saying things, giving an opinion; I have no proof for this."
Proof or retraction!
Whoever up & says there is only one Kingdom of God in the Bible, is responsible for proving it -- just up & saying it won't convince the readers. So if you assert there is but one kingdom, you are encouraged to prove it, or say like "I was just saying things, giving an opinion; I have no proof for this."
Proof or retraction!
Re: The Rapture is "At Hand," Imminent: Be Ready!
What is your proof of that?
The Greek word means departure. That it may mean literal departure is supported by the Liddell & Scott huge Greek Lexicon and by the usage in the Dormition of Mary.
Now if you have some proof that apostasia may not mean literal departure, bring it forth & prove it.
What is your proof of that?
The Greek word means departure. That it may mean literal departure is supported by the Liddell & Scott huge Greek Lexicon and by the usage in the Dormition of Mary.
Now if you have some proof that apostasia may not mean literal departure, bring it forth & prove it.
I can only show you that Christ shall judge in his kingdom:
2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
the same kingdom which he will deliver to the Father.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
If you can prove there are more to it...by all means please show.
otherwise it is like asking me to prove biblically if you have a brain?
2Ti_4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
the same kingdom which he will deliver to the Father.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
If you can prove there are more to it...by all means please show.
otherwise it is like asking me to prove biblically if you have a brain?
Re: No Rapture in the Olivet Discourse
exactly...there are things we do not know...so we cannot say for sure that it was not there...
where shall his elect be?
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
four winds...one end of Heaven to the other....does it not fill all places...
maybe Roger can give you an idea in "angels in the outfield"...
exactly...there are things we do not know...so we cannot say for sure that it was not there...
where shall his elect be?
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
four winds...one end of Heaven to the other....does it not fill all places...
maybe Roger can give you an idea in "angels in the outfield"...
First, the Bible has Homonyms within it. They are words that look and sound the same, but they have different meanings based on the surrounding context. For example: the words "sons of God" refers to angels in the Old Testament, but to believers in the New Testament. The word "law" can be used to refer to the Old Testament Law of Moses and it can also be used to refer to the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).
Second, when you read verse 9 in 1 Thessalonians 5, you have to realize that it is in context to verses 1-3 which proceeds it.
"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3).
Did you catch what it said? Paul says to the brethren that they should perfectly know that the "Day of the Lord" will come upon others suddenly like a thief in the night. For when they say "Peace and safety." then sudden destruction will come upon them. This means that it doesn't apply to them. Also, this "Day of the Lord" is what is in context to verse 9 (of which I showed you earlier that the sixth seal corresponds with: (a) the moon turning blood red and sky going dark (b) the Day of Wrath). Revelation 6 speaks about the beginning of the Wrath and Revelation 15 concludes the wrath. 1 Thessalonains 5:9 is saying that we are not appointed unto wrath. Appointed. Appointed now? No. Appointed unto Wrath is an appointment or set of time that is yet future. Sort of like if I said I had made an appointment for you tomorrow to meet up with the dentist. I would not appoint you to meet up with him now because appointments are usually done in advance. Yeah, but what about the phrase, "obtain salvation"? Well, Christians are saved in three phases. They are saved in Justiification (Initial acceptance of Christ), Sanctification (A continued walk with Christ), and Glorification (Going to be with Christ spiritually --- Which would be at the Pre-Trib Rapture; For the dead in Christ have not risen to Glorification yet because they are still in Abraham's Bosom awaiting for the call).
Third, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 makes it clear that there is a wrath to come.
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
Which makes sense because the Bible speaks about a coming wrath.
For it says in Revelation "for the great day of his wrath is come" in Revelation 6:17.
Second, when you read verse 9 in 1 Thessalonians 5, you have to realize that it is in context to verses 1-3 which proceeds it.
"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3).
Did you catch what it said? Paul says to the brethren that they should perfectly know that the "Day of the Lord" will come upon others suddenly like a thief in the night. For when they say "Peace and safety." then sudden destruction will come upon them. This means that it doesn't apply to them. Also, this "Day of the Lord" is what is in context to verse 9 (of which I showed you earlier that the sixth seal corresponds with: (a) the moon turning blood red and sky going dark (b) the Day of Wrath). Revelation 6 speaks about the beginning of the Wrath and Revelation 15 concludes the wrath. 1 Thessalonains 5:9 is saying that we are not appointed unto wrath. Appointed. Appointed now? No. Appointed unto Wrath is an appointment or set of time that is yet future. Sort of like if I said I had made an appointment for you tomorrow to meet up with the dentist. I would not appoint you to meet up with him now because appointments are usually done in advance. Yeah, but what about the phrase, "obtain salvation"? Well, Christians are saved in three phases. They are saved in Justiification (Initial acceptance of Christ), Sanctification (A continued walk with Christ), and Glorification (Going to be with Christ spiritually --- Which would be at the Pre-Trib Rapture; For the dead in Christ have not risen to Glorification yet because they are still in Abraham's Bosom awaiting for the call).
Third, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 makes it clear that there is a wrath to come.
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
Which makes sense because the Bible speaks about a coming wrath.
For it says in Revelation "for the great day of his wrath is come" in Revelation 6:17.
Also, I wanted to clarify that in Glorification, when a person goes to be with Christ spiritually, this is being with Christ spiritually in Heaven in all His glory. Those who are dead in Christ right now are with the Lord in Abraham's bosom. But "Glorification" is obtaining the final stage of salvation where we will get to be with the Lord in all His glory and where He will reward us.
EXACTLY!!! Then please recognize the verses that immediately proceed 1 Thes 5:1-3. I'm talking about 1 Thes 4:13-18. There is no segway, no transition from 1 Thes 4:13-18 to 1 Thes 5:1-3. Paul is giving the context of 1 Thes 4 as being "THE DAY OF THE LORD." The DAY OF THE LORD does not begin with some so-called Rapture. It does not start before the Tribulation!!!!
The Day of the Lord, lasts 1,000 years and it concludes with this from 2 Peter 3.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
The Day of the Lord that Paul discusses is the same Day of the Lord that Peter discusses which is the same Day of the Lord foretold by David and most of the OT prophets. Peter also calls the Day of the Lord, the "DAY OF GOD." Who does Paul identify as the one coming in 1 Thes 4:14? It isn't Christ.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
GOD WILL BRING those who sleep in Jesus!!!! It does not say Jesus is bringing and it doesn't say God will send with Jesus. It says GOD WILL BRING. Therefore, it is God doing the bringing and it is happening on the Day of the Lord and not before. Paul even uses the same language as PETER. See it??
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
Peter refers to it as "A thief in the Night" and so does Paul.
The Day of the Lord, lasts 1,000 years and it concludes with this from 2 Peter 3.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
The Day of the Lord that Paul discusses is the same Day of the Lord that Peter discusses which is the same Day of the Lord foretold by David and most of the OT prophets. Peter also calls the Day of the Lord, the "DAY OF GOD." Who does Paul identify as the one coming in 1 Thes 4:14? It isn't Christ.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
GOD WILL BRING those who sleep in Jesus!!!! It does not say Jesus is bringing and it doesn't say God will send with Jesus. It says GOD WILL BRING. Therefore, it is God doing the bringing and it is happening on the Day of the Lord and not before. Paul even uses the same language as PETER. See it??
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
Peter refers to it as "A thief in the Night" and so does Paul.
Last edited:
H
To Jason, a correction, The wrath of God did not come at Rev, 6: 17: It was postponed until Rev, 8:6. The whole ch.7 is parenthetical, added to explain the 144,000 Jews sealed, and the newly raptured Church in Heaven, THE Multitude of ch. 7. Raptured at the 6th seal, Not at Rev. 4:1. . AND the wrath ENDS at Rev,11:15 When Jesus takes over the kingdoms of this world, at His 2nd COMING to RULE this worlds system, for 1,000yrs. . BUT, the time of wrath is REPEATED, again, with the BOWLS; And Jesus 2nd coming is repeated again after the BOWLS. then, the millennium happens, then, the last battle, and then, the wicked dead are raised and then,Lake of fire, then, the NEW Heavens and earth, then, Forever! Love to all, Hoffco
There is wrath coming but it doesn't coming DURING the Tribulation, actually Satan's wrath comes then.
When Christ appears He slays Kings and armies who came up against Israel. He does not slay His followers. That is just common sense. He doesn't need to Rapture us to protect us which is clear from past history. First, if you realize that the church is almost entirely wiped out by Satan during the Tribulation then you can see that only a remnant are left to protect. Those left, Jesus gathers. Jesus does NOT rapture them or collect them in the clouds. Mat 24:29-31 is not the same event as 1 Thes 4:13-18. 1 Thes 4 goes along with 2 Peter 3 and 1 Cor 15:50-52 which happens at the end of the Day of the Lord.
When Christ appears He slays Kings and armies who came up against Israel. He does not slay His followers. That is just common sense. He doesn't need to Rapture us to protect us which is clear from past history. First, if you realize that the church is almost entirely wiped out by Satan during the Tribulation then you can see that only a remnant are left to protect. Those left, Jesus gathers. Jesus does NOT rapture them or collect them in the clouds. Mat 24:29-31 is not the same event as 1 Thes 4:13-18. 1 Thes 4 goes along with 2 Peter 3 and 1 Cor 15:50-52 which happens at the end of the Day of the Lord.
JESUS COMES AND GOD ALSO COMES. DO you think GOD IS STAYING IN THE OLD HEAVEN WHICH HE PROMISES TO DESTROY??? Why can't people get it through their heads this important fact? Jesus Gathers, God Raptures. Jesus reigns then turns the kingdom over to the FATHER. Thus BOTH ARE COMING and BOTH will be in the New Heaven on the New EARTH!!