Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[JackH]

It is silly to believe that words do not change with the passage of time. Wine can refer to either unfermented wine or fermented wine. Just look up the word "wine" at dictionary.com.

It's silly to believe that the Hebrew word yayin written by Moses in the book of Genesis changed with the passage of time.

Again, the word yayin comes from a root that means fermented.

Melchizedek provided yayin to Abraham.

Scripture should be used to prove Scripture whenever possible, not something in dictionary.com that was written thousands of years later.

Show me some verses in the book of Genesis where you think yayin is grape juice and not wine that contains alcohol.

 

[JackH]

OT Saints did not have the same liberty in Christ that we do. They could not eat certain meats and or even look at alcoholic drinks.

Abraham was an OT saint, right?

Do you think he refused the yayin (wine that contained alcohol) that Melchizedek provided?

If you do, you can probably convince yourself (and try to convince others) that dogs don't bark.

 

[JackH]

I'm simply amazed at the biblical illiteracy on this thread.

Especially from KJV-ONLY cultists like yourself and Jason0047.

 

[KJV1611]

And you should be. But remove that beam from your own eye first, eh?


Acts 2:13 "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

Phil do you believe the mockers definition of new wine or do you believe God's definition of new wine.
The mockers definition is alcoholic wine.
Gods definition is grape juice in the cluster.

 

[KJV1611]

Especially from KJV-ONLY cultists like yourself and Jason0047.

The KJV only cultist seem to be the only ones who understand what new wine is.

 

[JackH]

The KJV only cultist seem to be the only ones who understand what new wine is.

How was this new wine that you claim contains no alcohol preserved?

 

[kennethcadwell]

“Yayin” was the ordinary matured, fermented wine, “tirosh” was a new wine, and “shekar” was an old, powerful wine (“strong drink”). The red wine was the better and stronger (Ps 75:9, Prov 23:31). Perhaps the wine of Helbon (Ezek 27:18) and the wine of Lebanon (Hos. 14:77) were white wines. The vines of Hebron were noted for their large clusters of grapes (Num. 13:23). Samaria was the center of vineyards (Jeremiah 31: 5; Micah 1:6), and the Ephraimites were heavy wine-drinkers (Is 28:1). There were also “yayin ha-reḳaḥ” (spiced wine; Song 8:2), “ashishah” (hardened sirup of grapes), “shemarim (wine-dregs), and “ḥomeẓ yayin” (vinegar). Some wines were mixed with poisonous substances (“yayin tar’elah”; Ps 60:5). The “wine of the condemned” (“yen ‘anushim”) is wine paid as a forfeit (Amos 2:8), and “wine of violence” (Prov 4:17) is wine obtained by illegal means.

 

[JackH]

Also, most churches use grape juice in their services. So if you believe it is so important or essential that Jesus's disciples drank alcoholic wine, then you should either change churches that use alcoholic wine and or spike your grape juice. .

That's news to me, that most churches use grape juice.

The Catholic Church, Church of England, Episcopalians and more generally use wine that contains alcohol.

Seems to me that an accurate statement would be that most churches use wine that contains alcohol.

Oh, and then you have the issue that back in the days of the Bible, Welch's Grape Juice did not exist.

Where do you suppose they got all this fresh grape juice?

Oh, I know. When the apostles conducted a service out on the road, they made sure it took place next to a vineyard so they could use freshly squeezed grape juice. This may have been a problem during certain times of the year.

 

[KJV1611]

How was this new wine that you claim contains no alcohol preserved?

Which new wine, there are 2?
New wine - grape juice will rot.
New wine - Holy Spirit is not juice, it doesn't need preservation.

 

[JackH]

New wine - grape juice will rot.

Oh, so back in the days of the Bible, freshly squeezed grape juice could not be readily preserved as grape juice?

Is that correct?

 

[Agricola]

It is silly to believe that words do not change with the passage of time.

What, in the same way the English of 1611 has changed over 400 years? Or doesn't that count?

 

[KJV1611]

Oh, so back in the days of the Bible, freshly squeezed grape juice could not be readily preserved as grape juice?

Is that correct?

Jack this is simple... New wine is grape juice, old wine is fermented grape juice. Wine without NEW or OLD in front of it could mean either one. But to answer your question, freshly squeezed grape juice can not be preserved as FRESHLY squeezed grape juice. Fermented grape juice is no longer PURE FRESH CLEAN grape juice.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

They were full of new wine.... not alcoholic wine and not grape juice. New wine is the Holy Spirit.

Actually, they were not even full of new wine. It was a false accusation... which Peter refuted.

And Peter's answer reveals that Jesus was not drinking alcohol at all when He answered those who accused Him of being a winebibber.

But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Jesus was saying to watch His children and His children would show forth what type of wine they drank.

And that wine was not fermented!

What was the accusation? "These men are full of new wine." The mockers did not say "wine". Why not? Because they knew the followers of Jesus did not drink oinos, but gleukos.... an unfermented wine freshly squeezed from the cluster.

 

[KJV1611]

Actually, they were not even full of new wine. It was a false accusation... which Peter refuted.

And Peter's answer reveals that Jesus was not drinking alcohol at all when He answered those who accused Him of being a winebibber.

But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Jesus was saying to watch His children and His children would show forth what type of wine they drank.

And that wine was not fermented!

What was the accusation? "These men are full of new wine." The mockers did not say "wine". Why not? Because they knew the followers of Jesus did not drink oinos, but gleukos.... an unfermented wine freshly squeezed from the cluster.

Peter didn't refute it... he said they were not drunken, he never said they were not full of new wine.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Oh, so back in the days of the Bible, freshly squeezed grape juice could not be readily preserved as grape juice?

Is that correct?

Actually, there were methods that the ancients used to preserve new wine in its unfermented state. Jason posted some of those methods a few pages back.

 

[Eagle]

Get real is was good wine with alcohol in it - period

 

[JackH]

Jack this is simple... New wine is grape juice, old wine is fermented grape juice. Wine without NEW or OLD in front of it could mean either one. But to answer your question, freshly squeezed grape juice can not be preserved as FRESHLY squeezed grape juice. Fermented grape juice is no longer PURE FRESH CLEAN grape juice.

Luke 5:38: "But new wine must be put into new bottles: and both are preserved." (KJV)

Those words are in red in my KJV, which you say is perfect.

Why is Jesus giving this advice, do you think?

 

[JackH]

Actually, there were methods that the ancients used to preserve new wine in its unfermented state. Jason posted some of those methods a few pages back.

Please explain, in your own words, what had to be done to new wine to preserve it in its unfermented state.

 

[john832]

Abraham was an OT saint, right?

Do you think he refused the yayin (wine that contained alcohol) that Melchizedek provided?

If you do, you can probably convince yourself (and try to convince others) that dogs don't bark.

Abraham is GOING to be there, whereas some of us (including Jason0047) are not guaranteed yet.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

Luke 5:38: "But new wine must be put into new bottles: and both are preserved." (KJV)

Those words are in red in my KJV, which you say is perfect.

Why is Jesus giving this advice, do you think?

new wine... Preserved in its fresh, unfermented state.