The Rapture?

Graybeard · Nov 21, 2009

So I see that Definition_Christ has had a change of mind, myself having been convinced with pre-trib belief and to tell you the truth at the moment I am neither pre-trib nor post-trib because I would really like to get to the bottom of this, for myself at least as God is not a God of confusion and I am confused. I have requested in an earlier post if someone can give a list of ALL scripture that deal with Christ's return and our being called up(rapture) but no one has obliged, am I perhaps asking wrongly.

Graybeard · Nov 21, 2009

BTW, I don't want to refer to Christ's return as the Second Coming as when He returns for us it will actually be His 3rd appearance.

shad · Nov 21, 2009

watchmen said:

You are a man most presumptuous in your premise as well as your conclusions about God's salvation, the church and bride of Christ, God's mercy and grace and the plan of God concerning those that have purchased with His own blood. It is not a matter of interpretation but of one of presumption. You presume against the nature of God and the scriptures that testify of His great love and mercy that was exhibited through His Son on the cross. For those that presume the way you do is a great transgression / Psalm 19:13,14.

13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

Presumptuous sins are not something that many believers think about or even know that they are guilty of. They begin to accumulate in the mind and imaginations of the heart against other believers and become a great transgression and stronghold against the nature of God and His precious promises that have been given to His precious saints. This great transgression, as all other transgressions needs to be confessed as sin and repented of in the thoughts of the mind and imaginations of the heart as a stronghold /2Cor 10:4,5.

If this stronghold continues to have dominion, it will eventually incapacitate the individual's faith and will hinder and make it impossible (in some cases) to receive grace and mercy from God. The individual will transgress even further into being heady and high minded in the things of God, knowing nothing but strife , envy, railings and evil surmisings / 1Tim 6:3-5. When an individual continues to accuse God's servants of being deceived, when they are not deceived but follow God with all their heart, that individual is guilty of presumptuous sins which is a great transgression. The psalmist understood this and asked God to keep him back from presumptuous sins lest they lead to the great transgression.

happynGod · Nov 21, 2009

Don't get caught up so much in the word rapture. Keep the judgment day in mind. The day God will come and it will all be finished.

watchmen · Nov 21, 2009

Graybeard said:

I wll see if I can get you that list Graybeard.

Graybeard said:

What do you mean when Christ returns for us that will be His 3rd appearance?

watchmen · Nov 21, 2009

shad said:

You are a man most presumptuous in your premise as well as your conclusions about God's salvation, the church and bride of Christ, God's mercy and grace and the plan of God concerning those that have purchased with His own blood. It is not a matter of interpretation but of one of presumption. You presume against the nature of God and the scriptures that testify of His great love and mercy that was exhibited through His Son on the cross. For those that presume the way you do is a great transgression / Psalm 19:13,14.

I PRESUME to believe what God has said in His word.

happynGod · Nov 21, 2009

His first coming was His birth, right? The second coming will be judgment day, right? If not correct me with scripture and not opinion. For anyone.

watchmen · Nov 21, 2009

happyngod said:

Well as I understand it Judgment day is at the end of the Millennium. Jesus returns prior to the Millennium to set up His earthly Kingdom. So I believe His 2nd coming is 1,000 years prior to Judgment day, but it is after the Tribulation, scripture makes that point abundantly clear.

happynGod · Nov 21, 2009

OK, I will do some more study.This is in the last part of Revelation right? As you can probably tell I don't think I believe in the rapture. The word is not in the Bible but to be caught up in the air is. So to me this is a difficult subject for me personally to understand. But I do need to do more study. Thank you for your comment. If you have some scripture that you think will help me let me know. ty and GBU

Graybeard · Nov 21, 2009

watchmen said:

Thanks, I need to get to the truth

His birth, life and ministry - first appearance
He was crucified and died, rose from the dead and appeared to His disciples and others for a while - second appearance
He is about to return for His bride - third appearance

Graybeard · Nov 21, 2009

happyngod said:

OK, I will do some more study.This is in the last part of Revelation right? As you can probably tell I don't think I believe in the rapture. The word is not in the Bible but to be caught up in the air is. So to me this is a difficult subject for me personally to understand. But I do need to do more study. Thank you for your comment. If you have some scripture that you think will help me let me know. ty and GBU

caught up in the air = rapture
just a modern phrase but the same thing

happynGod · Nov 21, 2009

Thank you graybeard. I did not stop and think that when He rose from the dead was the 2nd appearance. Now I am like duh, lol. I think that I am making this harder to understand by trying so hard to understand. Does that make any since? This is the one thing in the Bible that my mind is having a hard time grasping.

Graybeard · Nov 21, 2009

happyngod said:

are you talking about "the Rapture"?

watchmen · Nov 21, 2009

happyngod said:

watchmen said:

happyngod said:

Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verses 4-6 tell us the resurrection of the just or the first resurrection is before the 1,000 years reign of Christ which occurs at the 2nd coming via 1st Corinthians 15:20-23. Then verses 7-15 tell us Judgment day id 1,000 years later after the millennial reign.

1Cor 15
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The just are resurrected at the 2nd coming before the millennium, Judgment day ios after the Millennium via scripture not opinion.

watchmen · Nov 21, 2009

Graybeard said:

Technically this could be true, but biblically His resurrection and appearance to the apostlesdoes not qualify as an ''appearance'' or ''coming''. According to scripture his return from Heaven will be His 2nd coming.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

So His first appearance was to be born, live, die, resurrect, and ascend to Heaven, His 2nd coming or appearance according to scripture at least is when He will return from Heaven to resurrect the just rapture the living saints, restore the Jews, destroy the wicked, and set up His Millennial Kingdom.

happynGod · Nov 21, 2009

Yes, graybeard I am talking about the rapture and not sure if I believe they way most people believe. I think there will be the judgment day and that is it. Watchmen gave some scripture I will study on. I am just trying to learn. ty all GBU

watchmen · Nov 21, 2009

happyngod said:

I do not believe in the popular teaching of the rapture in todays church either. This escapism cult started teaching a pre-tribulational rapture in the early 1800s. Scripture tells us that we will be here until the post trib, pre-millennial return of Christ at which point He will resurrect the just, then catch up believers that are alive and remain. After the 1,000 year Millennial reign then will the wicked be resurrected and judged.

shad · Nov 21, 2009

watchmen said:

Your getting bold in your presumptuous attitude. You are dead wrong and when believers hear the truth and what the Spirit says through the written word, the Spirit inside of them will witness and confirm that truth and they will have joy and not the confusion that has been given to them. With some it has already happened and they are established in the truth with joy. Others are wavering but God is faithful to those that belong to Him and they will know the truth and they will be set free. Mark it down, because it is coming and you won't be able to do anything against the truth but only for the truth. Every time that the Spirit tries to get to you on these things you have refused it just like MS. But there will come a time when you will not be able to resist the truth.

watchmen · Nov 21, 2009

shad said:

I pray you are right shad. I believe God is revealing His truth to more and more people every day. There are more post trib, Historical premillennialist now than ever. Truth is having a resurgence, and we are returning to the beliefs of the apostles before Catholicism declared premillenniumism false and dispensationalism in reinstating premillennialism perverted the word. God is bringing His Bride back to the knowledge of His truth.

Definition_Christ · Nov 21, 2009

watchmen said:

Amen.. That will happen in the end days...

Joel 2
28 “ And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 “ And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said,
Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

The Rapture?

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