Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[JackH]

"shekar" has more than one meaning.

It can mean "strong drink"
It can mean "intoxicating"
It can mean "strong drink that is intoxicating"

Context shows which it is.

For instance,

In Deuteronomy 14, God tells the Israelite tither to buy strong drink to be consumed at the religious festival in Jerusalem.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

IN Micah 2:11, God warns them to beware of prophets who promote strong drink.

Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

Same word, "shekar" in both verses. Difference being that in the former, God promotes the drinking of the strong drink and gives no limitation or restriction whatsoever. If this were an alcoholic beverage, then the one celebrating could get smashed out of his gourd since there is no instruction to limit or restrict oneself to just a glass. Clearly, this strong drink is not alcoholic.

In the latter, God clearly is set against the strong drink, revealing that the man who prophesies of string drink is lying when he does such. This strong drink is alcoholic and God's favor is not upon it at all.

Things that are different are not the same.

In both verses you cite, we have yayin translated to wine and shekar translated to strong drink.

You confirm that we are talking about intoxicating beverages in Micah 2:11.

Yet even though we have the very same words in each verse, and yayin comes from a root that means fermented and shekel comes from a root that means intoxicating, you deny that those words mean an alcoholic beverage in Deuteronomy 14:26.

So let's focus on Deuteronomy 14:26 shall we.

Moses is the author of that, right?

And Moses is the author of Genesis, right?

Moses used the word yayin 10 times in Genesis. The preponderance of evidence confirms he referred to an intoxicating beverage. Even you is not going to dispute the verses about Noah and Lot where yayin is translated to wine.

Why would Moses use yayin to mean a beverage that is not intoxicating, when he used yayin to mean one that is intoxicating so many times previously? When he could have used other words if he meant a beverage that is not intoxicating?

Scripture is the best way to interpret Scripture.

The only reason you have given why yayin or shekar does not mean an intoxicating beverage is because you don't want the meaning to be that in certain verses.

Your private pre-conceived interpretations are more important to you than determining what God's message really is.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The definition:

Oy'-nos is fermented wine from the grape.....

It only refers to unfermented if the wine is produced from another fruit....you can read that in the definition.


The tradition :

In Jewish tradition the good ( fermented ) wine was served first, once every one was drunk they took it and brought out lower grade ( less fermented ) wine to get rid of it, and the guest would not know the difference.

In the scripture it clearly states the good was saved for last. If you take the Jewish tradition and apply it to the scripture as you should. Then you will get the true meaning behind how oy'-nos was used here.
From the grape, and fermented.

 

[BlackPlatypus]

There's no scripture that say's he turned into fermented wine either.

That's because the early scribes presumed people would understand what wine is. If Jesus did not believe people should drink wine, a staple in his day for lack of water in a desert region, he would have then been remiss in turning water, which was a gift to have available in jugs or barrels, into wine.

 

[JackH]

There's no scripture that say's he turned into fermented wine either.

Scripture indicates if it is wine, it must have fermented. If it has not fermented, it is something else.

 

[BlackPlatypus]

To whom are you speaking?

I see something way different than you. I see something good and beautiful...The difference between you and I is that I do not mind being wrong but at least I don't lean on google to dig up untruths. Some things are not written... but Mary the Mother of Jesus i have to believe she was a good woman. Did she not think He could do it?

anything Jesus asks us to go get is reaping

Either way...You are judging something that you have right judging you are judging what symbolicly became the blood of Christ and that is dangerous.

Let me ask you this. You say that the wine could not have had alcohol in it because it would make it evil? Did God create evil?

You say that it can cause a man to stumble so can the internet...is it evil?

How about people with sex addiction...should I not smile a friendly smile for fear that they may stumble?

What about addictive medication that people need to survive? is that evil because it could distroy?

People make it evil...

 

[KJV1611]

Scripture indicates if it is wine, it must have fermented. If it has not fermented, it is something else.

I don't argue things that scripture clearly presents... you believe what you want, I don't mind.

Isa_65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

 

[lisa79]

I didn't utilize google to arrive at what I posted. Don't know why you keep inferring I do

As I said, you are wrong. You add to the Word of God in many ways when you give your interpretation of John 2:1-11. That much is quite obvious.
You say you don't mind being corrected, yet you constantly dismiss correction.

And you are still juding a dangerous subject. I can be wrong on my opinion. I am afraid you can not afford to be wrong concerning yours. As i said i asked the Holy to guide me...He is generous. My point is still the same .. you are juding what became symbolic of the blood of Christ and i will take what was revealed to me and seek council. Or I could do what you do and mold scripture to fit my point of view....

 

[KJV1611]

That's because the early scribes presumed people would understand what wine is. If Jesus did not believe people should drink wine, a staple in his day for lack of water in a desert region, he would have then been remiss in turning water, which was a gift to have available in jugs or barrels, into wine.

You know alcohol dehydrates person, it's not a substitute for water. Black scripture is crystal clear that there is new wine (grape juice) and old wine (fermented).

Isa_65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

 

[KJV1611]

And you are still juding a dangerous subject. I can be wrong on my opinion. I am afraid you can not afford to be wrong concerning yours. As i said i asked the Holy to guide me...He is generous. My point is still the same .. you are juding what became symbolic of the blood of Christ and i will take what was revealed to me and seek council. Or I could do what you do and mold scripture to fit my point of view....

Why don't you guys work this out the biblical way. If what yall say is true then there will be another witness in the bible. Do you have a second witness to your view?

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

In both verses you cite, we have yayin translated to wine and shekar translated to strong drink.

You confirm that we are talking about intoxicating beverages in Micah 2:11.

Yet even though we have the very same words in each verse, and yayin comes from a root that means fermented and shekel comes from a root that means intoxicating, you deny that those words mean an alcoholic beverage in Deuteronomy 14:26.

So let's focus on Deuteronomy 14:26 shall we.

Moses is the author of that, right?

And Moses is the author of Genesis, right?

Moses used the word yayin 10 times in Genesis. The preponderance of evidence confirms he referred to an intoxicating beverage. Even you is not going to dispute the verses about Noah and Lot where yayin is translated to wine.

Why would Moses use yayin to mean a beverage that is not intoxicating, when he used yayin to mean one that is intoxicating so many times previously? When he could have used other words if he meant a beverage that is not intoxicating?

Scripture is the best way to interpret Scripture.

The only reason you have given why yayin or shekar does not mean an intoxicating beverage is because you don't want the meaning to be that in certain verses.

Your private pre-conceived interpretations are more important to you than determining what God's message really is.

Genesis 14 does not imply an alcoholic wine. Nor does Genesis 27. Exodus 29, Leviticus 23... several passages that use yayin but do not say it was alcoholic.

Yes, that yayin in Genesis 9 was fermented. How did the ferment come about? a process of time. yayin starts as a fresh, unfermented wine, and, if allowed to ferment, will become alcohol.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

That's because the early scribes presumed people would understand what wine is. If Jesus did not believe people should drink wine, a staple in his day for lack of water in a desert region, he would have then been remiss in turning water, which was a gift to have available in jugs or barrels, into wine.

lack of water? seriously?

They had a lack of water yet He turned what into wine? RoFL Yer grasping BP.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I don't argue things that scripture clearly presents... you believe what you want, I don't mind.

Isa_65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

The word used here is Tirosh, which does mean unfermented. Because while it is still in the grape it is unfermented and when the grapes are pressed it is the new wine, but as it sits and ferments it becomes the oy'-nos that is used in the NT which stands for fermented wine from the grape.

 

[KJV1611]

The word used here is Tirosh, which does mean unfermented. Because while it is still in the grape it is unfermented and when the grapes are pressed it is the new wine, but as it sits and ferments it becomes the oy'-nos that is used in the NT which stands for fermented wine from the grape.

So "wine" can mean fermented or unfermented right? To know for sure which is being referenced, "new" or "old" has to be in front of it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

So "wine" can mean fermented or unfermented right? To know for sure which is being referenced, "new" or "old" has to be in front of it.

By biblical reference yes, I have never refuted that.

What I have said though is you have to know which context is being used.

In Jesus turning water into wine, the true meaning of oy'nos which is used in this scripture is fermented wine from the grape.

Oy'-nos when used as unfermented is when it is made from other fruits, not the grape.

The grape is the traditional fruit that was used for wines by Jews, and is what was used for ceremonies. Anything else would have been noticed and not accepted at the ceremony. The good ( fermented ) wine was to be served first, the least in quality ( not as well aged and fermented ) was to be served last. So that the good was not wasted.

 

[JackH]

So "wine" can mean fermented or unfermented right? To know for sure which is being referenced, "new" or "old" has to be in front of it.

Genesis 19:32: "Come let us make our father drink wine (yayin), and we will lie with him, that we may preserve see of our father."

"New" or "old" isn't in front of wine.

You can tell that the wine is intoxicating, right?

 

[BlackPlatypus]

You know alcohol dehydrates person, it's not a substitute for water. Black scripture is crystal clear that there is new wine (grape juice) and old wine (fermented).

Isa_65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

If it was unfermented wine that Jesus created from water, it wouldn't be an issue in scripture at all, would it?
So then, why in other scripture did Paul say this: Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit,

One can not get drunk on grape juice.

Early Church History 101 Wine in the Ancient World

 

[BlackPlatypus]

lack of water? seriously?

They had a lack of water yet He turned what into wine? RoFL Yer grasping BP.

No, I'm not grasping. If you imagine water was plentiful in the desert, it is you who are grasping. Or, you know nothing of deserts. Nor do you know that in the ancient times, that era in which the scriptures refer to the culture of the time, there wasn't always pure water to drink.

[h=1][/h] [SUP]1 Timothy 5:23 [/SUP]Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

 

[JackH]

Genesis 14 does not imply an alcoholic wine. Nor does Genesis 27.

Genesis 14 and 27 do not imply a nonalcoholic beverage either. So we are left with the other 8 verses in Genesis that do imply that yayin is an alcoholic beverage. And we also have the word yayin itself that comes from a root word that means fermented.


What verses in the Bible do imply that yayin is not an alcoholic beverage? I'm not talking about any of your private interpretations. I'm talking about something else in the verse that would lead one to believe that yayin is not an alcoholic beverage.

So what about the Song of Solomon? I'm sure you are an expert on that book too.

Is the wine (yayin) in numerous verses in that book referring to an alcoholic beverage or not?

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

No, I'm not grasping. If you imagine water was plentiful in the desert, it is you who are grasping. Or, you know nothing of deserts. Nor do you know that in the ancient times, that era in which the scriptures refer to the culture of the time, there wasn't always pure water to drink.

[SUP]1 Timothy 5:23 [/SUP]Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Water lacking? Hardly! Jesus encouraged giving it to others. And notice He said "cold" water"?

Interesting, since Cato mentioned something in his writings about sinking a bottle of unfermented wine in a millpond keeping it cold and keeping it from fermenting.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

No, I'm not grasping. If you imagine water was plentiful in the desert, it is you who are grasping. Or, you know nothing of deserts. Nor do you know that in the ancient times, that era in which the scriptures refer to the culture of the time, there wasn't always pure water to drink.

[SUP]1 Timothy 5:23 [/SUP]Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

Timothy had problems with his stomach. Any doctor worth his salt will tell a patient who is having problems with the stomach to abstain from alcohol.

The wine Paul prescribed to Timothy was not alcoholic.