Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[SolidGround]

well if want to be drunk, then you will be. I wonder if you are truly saved, because when a person is saved they abhor sin. I know more than most that one glass turns into 15 glasses and well it's okay because it's wine and Jesus drank wine. But if it's beer then its wrong or if its liquor well that's for drunks. So what is it and why do you need it?

For most, one glass usually stays as one glass.
What percent of people do you think have alcohol problems?

Most unsaved people I know rarely drink alcohol, and when they do it is generally moderate.
With the power of the Holy Spirit, do you think that Christians are somehow MORE susceptible to falling into drunkenness?

If you know your failings, then do not tempt your flesh.
But don't assume your failings are universal, and chain other believers to your past sins.

Let those in liberty stay free, warning them of folly and instructing in righteousness.
A little wine is good. Much wine is folly.

The man who has no self control has no right to even taste the good of it.

 

[SolidGround]

Also, if your focus is on sin, then your focus is on self, not Christ.
Get over yourselves.

When we focus on doing the good work that we are called to do in Christ, there is no time for sin to enter.
Rather than wasting your life, trying to empty it of sin,
fill your life with righteousness.

There is no room for sin to remain if your life is full of righteousness.
"Idle hands" and "idle minds". Keep busy. There is work to be done.
The harvest is plentiful, and the workers are few.

 

[KJV1611]

Also, if your focus is on sin, then your focus is on self, not Christ.
Get over yourselves.

When we focus on doing the good work that we are called to do in Christ, there is no time for sin to enter.
Rather than wasting your life, trying to empty it of sin,
fill your life with righteousness.

There is no room for sin to remain if your life is full of righteousness.
"Idle hands" and "idle minds". Keep busy. There is work to be done.
The harvest is plentiful, and the workers are few.

The focus of the thread is not on sin nor doing good works, the focus is on the heretical belief that Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine so the people could get drunker.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

For most, one glass usually stays as one glass.
What percent of people do you think have alcohol problems?

Most unsaved people I know rarely drink alcohol, and when they do it is generally moderate.
With the power of the Holy Spirit, do you think that Christians are somehow MORE susceptible to falling into drunkenness?

If you know your failings, then do not tempt your flesh.
But don't assume your failings are universal, and chain other believers to your past sins.

Let those in liberty stay free, warning them of folly and instructing in righteousness.
A little wine is good. Much wine is folly.

The man who has no self control has no right to even taste the good of it.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[SolidGround]

The focus of the thread is not on sin nor doing good works, the focus is on the heretical belief that Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine so the people could get drunker.

This thread is about rewording the Bible to fit into your moral construct,
and force the actions of Christ to line up with your false teachings.

When you say that making fermented wine was a sin in that situation,
You have accused God of sin.

I will not tolerate such blasphemy against my God.

 

[Jason0047]

This thread is about rewording the Bible to fit into your moral construct,
and force the actions of Christ to line up with your false teachings.

When you say that making fermented wine was a sin in that situation,
You have accused God of sin.

I will not tolerate such blasphemy against my God.

You told me in another thread that there is no such thing as moral absolutes or eternal moral laws. For you believe that murder, lying, fornicating stealing, drunkenness, etc. are not always sins in every given situation. You mentioned before about how God commanding the Israelïtes to destroy their enemies is essentially God approving of murder. However, nothing could be further from the truth. One is the self preservation of God's chosen nation (i.e. His people) by God's Command (Because God is the giver and taker of life) and the other is about taking a life selfishly for dark and evil purposes (Making oneself into your their own god). Also, you failed how one can do any of the other moral evils and yet still call it good. In other words, how can we really trust that your version of God is the true God of the Scriptures if we can't trust in His righteous and good ways?

 

[SolidGround]

You told me in another thread that there is no such thing as moral absolutes or eternal moral laws. For you believe that murder, lying, fornicating stealing, drunkenness, etc. are not always sins in every given situation. You mentioned before about how God commanding the Israelïtes to destroy their enemies is essentially God approving of murder. However, nothing could be further from the truth. One is the self preservation of God's chosen nation (i.e. His people) by God's Command (Because God is the giver and taker of life) and the other is about taking a life selfishly for dark and evil purposes (Making oneself into your their own god). Also, you failed how one can do any of the other moral evils and yet still call it good. In other words, how can we really trust that your version of God is the true God of the Scriptures if we can't trust in His righteous and good ways?

You misunderstand.
If God commands it, then it is morally good. In that we can trust fully.
To call anything that God does "sin" is to blaspheme.

To hold yourself as judge over the actions of God
is the ultimate form of foolishness.

Twist all you want, trial is already upon you.
Repent, or be consumed by it.
You are in my prayers.

 

[Jason0047]

See, I know the Lord our God is a good God. His moral righteous character is unchanging. God is good. Always. Not sometimes. God's righteous actions are also knowable, too. God is not the author of confusion, either. He is not going to tell us to do anything that is wrong ever. But I believe many here have turned off their moral compasses or they stop listening to God trying to talk to their heart about what is good and right. For folks here are fighting to defend a beverage. A beverage! However, the kingdom of God is not meat or drink, but it is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Why I am so afraid for everyone here who cannot trust, know, or recognize God's goodness or righteous actions? Because there is no eternal moral standards. God is whatever you want Him to be based upon your own situational ethics or whatever you feel is right. That is why Atheism doesn't work. There is no moral standard in Atheism. For example: If you are an atheist, you believe man evolved from a single celled organism. Soooo that means that there really is no such thing as murder in this world view because the elimination of another is like one single celled organism eliminating another single celled organism by the process of natural selection. However, if you truly surrendered your life to Christ and believe in the Bible for real, there is a moral standard that you can trust and rely upon because God is good and that goodness does not change.

 

[Jason0047]

You misunderstand.
If God commands it, then it is morally good. In that we can trust fully.
To call anything that God does "sin" is to blaspheme.

To hold yourself as judge over the actions of God
is the ultimate form of foolishness.

Twist all you want, trial is already upon you.
Repent, or be consumed by it.
You are in my prayers.

Do believe God just told Abraham to murder his son?

That God was asking Abraham to just turn off his moral compass?

Well, if you do believe that, then you would be wrong, my friend. See Abraham did not believe God was asking him to permanently take the life of his own son because he believed God was going to resurrect Isaac (See Hebrews 11:19).

Anyways, I will be praying that you can trust that God's ways are always good ways. God would never ask us to believe or to do something that is immoral. Never. For God is good.

For this is not the first time I debated this topic before. I have seen how upset and cruel people have gotten over their defense of alcohol.

 

[Ukorin]

God must be soo happy with that enormous box you gave Him to live in.
I forgot just how predictable, and totally not mysterious, the ways of God are.

 

[SolidGround]

Do believe God just told Abraham to murder his son?

That God was asking Abraham to just turn off his moral compass?

Well, if you do believe that, then you would be wrong, my friend. See Abraham did not believe God was asking him to permanently take the life of his own son because he believed God was going to resurrect Isaac (See Hebrews 11:19).

Anyways, I will be praying that you can trust that God's ways are always good ways. God would never ask us to believe or to do something that is immoral. Never. For God is good.

For this is not the first time I debated this topic before. I have seen how upset and cruel people have gotten over their defense of alcohol.

Don't you see?
Abraham had Faith that regardless of the command and what it seemed, that good would come of it!
Faith is obeying God, even if you don't understand how it could possibly turn out for good.
You don't see the good in the wine, but that doesn't mean anything at all.
God did it. It was for good.
There is no need to explain it away.

 

[pastac]

I pray none of the posters are pastors teaching some of this this in any church! I hope this is just leaning to the misguided and distorted out of context view of personal beliefs and lack of clear biblical understanding. Some of the post are very interesting to say the least some others are flat out asinine the danger is very few see the difference! I hope this ends soon as it is really a waste of time to continue. Its really silly if you look at the post! This is not helping save one soul for the kingdom it is a distraction. Oh yeah this is my opinion on the record. I hope the guardian Angels see it and report it to Jesus so I can give an account for my position.

 

[Jason0047]

Don't you see?
Abraham had Faith that regardless of the command and what it seemed, that good would come of it!
Faith is obeying God, even if you don't understand how it could possibly turn out for good.
You don't see the good in the wine, but that doesn't mean anything at all.
God did it. It was for good.
There is no need to explain it away.

Yeah, but your version of the story of Abraham didn't happen, though. Read Hebrews 11:19.

 

[Jason0047]

God must be soo happy with that enormous box you gave Him to live in.
I forgot just how predictable, and totally not mysterious, the ways of God are.

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said,*Ye*men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.*For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.*God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;*Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;*

 

[SolidGround]

Yeah, but your version of the story of Abraham didn't happen, though. Read Hebrews 11:19.

It reads exactly as I presented.
Abraham had Faith in God and in His command, that it was good,
and that God was powerful enough to make it good, regardless of what things seemed.
He obeyed, and it was good.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

God must be soo happy with that enormous box you gave Him to live in.
I forgot just how predictable, and totally not mysterious, the ways of God are.

Funny, looks to us like you have put God in your alcohol lined box.

 

[pastac]

Now how about everybody share some grape juice and call this thing done!

 

[Jason0047]

Christian Song (With Mention of the Bread and the Wine):

Sea of Faces on Vimeo

[video=vimeo;6578872]http://vimeo.com/6578872[/video]

 

[Last]

if your friend had been living in the first century, he no doubt would be singing a different tune.

Yes, since he would have no concept of grape juice.

 

[Last]

Timothy had problems with his stomach. Any doctor worth his salt will tell a patient who is having problems with the stomach to abstain from alcohol.

The wine Paul prescribed to Timothy was not alcoholic.

There was no non-alcoholic wine. Drinking wine is exactly what someone would recommend back then. Water was no sterile and could contain diseases. The alcohol in wine has antiseptic qualities to it.