"In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but not necessarily to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12)."
Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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KJV
Numbers 6:3
He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
Numbers 6:4
All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.
NASB
Numbers 6:3
he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes.
Numbers 6:4
All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.
Numbers 6:3
He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
Numbers 6:4
All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.
NASB
Numbers 6:3
he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes.
Numbers 6:4
All the days of his separation he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from the seeds even to the skin.
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It doesn't come out as Welch's Grape Juice, does it?
What happens once you squeeze the grapes?
Think back to biblical times.
When you couldn't send the grapes to a Welch's plant for processing.
Water and wine were the staples of the diet with respect to beverages back in biblical times.
Why wine? Because it could readily be preserved for long periods of times due to the natural process of fermentation.
This is so easy that even a caveman can understand it.
What happens once you squeeze the grapes?
Think back to biblical times.
When you couldn't send the grapes to a Welch's plant for processing.
Water and wine were the staples of the diet with respect to beverages back in biblical times.
Why wine? Because it could readily be preserved for long periods of times due to the natural process of fermentation.
This is so easy that even a caveman can understand it.
I agree with the last part of your post. Scripture does not forbid Christians from drinking alcoholic beverages. And let's not forget about the Jews. Have the Jews ever believed that the OT forbids alcoholic beverages?
Now, as for the first part of your post. Back in biblical times, wine would end up being around 10% or a little more in alcoholic content naturally, via the natural process of fermentation. That is without adding anything to it or doing anything to it other than crushing the grapes and putting the product in new wineskins, like Jesus said.
Of course today you can do a whole lot of things to wine to increase or decrease the alcoholic content or to modify the taste.
Now, as for the first part of your post. Back in biblical times, wine would end up being around 10% or a little more in alcoholic content naturally, via the natural process of fermentation. That is without adding anything to it or doing anything to it other than crushing the grapes and putting the product in new wineskins, like Jesus said.
Of course today you can do a whole lot of things to wine to increase or decrease the alcoholic content or to modify the taste.
My point would be two-fold.
1. Apparently they had a word for juice
2. The Nazarite vow not only forbid the drinking of wine, but also did not allow anyone under the vow to him to drink grape juice or even eat grapes.
I am not against you on this point (that I know of, anyway). I think this argument is unproductive. We shouldn't be denying that Jesus gave them alcoholic wine, but asking why He did, imo.
1. Apparently they had a word for juice
2. The Nazarite vow not only forbid the drinking of wine, but also did not allow anyone under the vow to him to drink grape juice or even eat grapes.
I am not against you on this point (that I know of, anyway). I think this argument is unproductive. We shouldn't be denying that Jesus gave them alcoholic wine, but asking why He did, imo.
I totally agree with your last statement.
We should not be denying that Jesus provided wine, an alcoholic beverage, at the wedding in Cana.
But some still continue to do so on this thread, ignoring the preponderance of biblical and other evidence. They continue to misrepresent the Word of God, science, and just about everything else.
Why did Jesus provide the wine (alcoholic beverage) at the wedding in Cana, in your view?
We should not be denying that Jesus provided wine, an alcoholic beverage, at the wedding in Cana.
But some still continue to do so on this thread, ignoring the preponderance of biblical and other evidence. They continue to misrepresent the Word of God, science, and just about everything else.
Why did Jesus provide the wine (alcoholic beverage) at the wedding in Cana, in your view?
As you pointed out in your next post, these verses are speaking of the vow of a Nazirite.
I don't see that the word "juice" is particularly relevant, other than it appears in the NASB translation and not the KJV translation. Other than this is yet another error in the KJV.
But let me ask you this: What is the point of verse 6:4? Why would a Nazirite be forbidden from consuming any grape product whatsoever in verse 6:4?
I don't see that the word "juice" is particularly relevant, other than it appears in the NASB translation and not the KJV translation. Other than this is yet another error in the KJV.
But let me ask you this: What is the point of verse 6:4? Why would a Nazirite be forbidden from consuming any grape product whatsoever in verse 6:4?
The comment is in the picture from the page of the book. oinos is a word that was used for both fermented and non fermented wine in ancient history.
What Josephus wrote:
What Josephus wrote:
"2. He therefore said, that in his sleep he saw three clusters of grapes hanging upon three branches of a vine, large already, and ripe for gathering; and that he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hand; and when he had strained the wine, he gave it to the king to drink, and that he received it from him with a pleasant countenance. This, he said, was what he saw; and he desired Joseph, that if he had any portion of understanding in such matters, he would tell him what this vision foretold. Who bid him be of good cheer, and expect to be loosed from his bonds in three days’ time, because the king desired his service, and was about to restore him to it again; for he let him know that God bestows the fruit of the vine upon men for good; which wine is poured out to him, and is the pledge of fidelity and mutual confidence among men; and puts an end to their quarrels, takes away passion and grief out of the minds of them that use it, and makes them cheerful. “Thou sayest that thou didst squeeze this wine from three clusters of grapes with thine hands, and that the king received it: know, therefore, that this vision is for thy good, and foretells a release from thy present distress within the same number of days as the branches had whence thou gatheredst thy grapes in thy sleep. However, remember what prosperity I have foretold thee when thou hast found it true by experience; and when thou art in authority, do not overlook us in this prison, wherein thou wilt leave us when thou art gone to the place we have foretold; for we are not in prison for any crime; but for the sake of our virtue and sobriety are we condemned to suffer the penalty of malefactors, and because we are not willing to injure him that has thus distressed us, though it were for our own pleasure.” The cupbearer, therefore, as was natural to do, rejoiced to hear such an interpretation of his dream, and waited the completion of what had been thus shown him beforehand." The Works of Josephus; Chapter 5, What Things Befell Joseph in Prison; Quickverse 2010
We have a liberty in Christ to drink soberly and in moderation within the privacy of our own place. But such a liberty did not exist before the cross. For the OT saint could not eat unclean animals. Yet today, we have a liberty in Christ to all the delicious unclean animals we want. Also, the OT saint also read in the Old Testament that wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, wine is not for kings, do not look into a cup while it is red, it can bite you like a serpent.
For the Israelites were commended for not drinking wine in Deuteronomy 32 which was a distinguishing mark of being a part of God. Daniel chapter 1 tells us about how he did not drink the king's wine and eat his meat otherwise he would have been defiled. The list against strong drink in the OT goes on and on. For you have to go out of your way to ignore, and or twist Scripture by doing a bunch of textual gymastics with the text of the OT to make it appear that it was not forbidden for the OT saint to drink intoxicating beverages.
For the Israelites were commended for not drinking wine in Deuteronomy 32 which was a distinguishing mark of being a part of God. Daniel chapter 1 tells us about how he did not drink the king's wine and eat his meat otherwise he would have been defiled. The list against strong drink in the OT goes on and on. For you have to go out of your way to ignore, and or twist Scripture by doing a bunch of textual gymastics with the text of the OT to make it appear that it was not forbidden for the OT saint to drink intoxicating beverages.
Sorry. That is Deuteronomy 29 and not 32. Deuteronomy 29 they were told not to have wine and strong drink so that the Israelites may know the Lord their God. Deuteronomy 32 is an important point of mention on the topic of alcoholic beverages, though. Deuteronomy 32:14 tells us they drank the pure blood of the grape. Meaning, the Israelites drank pure freshly squeezed grape juice from the cluster of the grapes.
Please tell me. How can somebody swerve from the faith if one believes they have a liberty in Christ to drink under the NT (Not the OT) and encourage others to abstain out of love (And not as a commandment)? How can one swerve from the faith if one teaches that the OT saint (Not the NT saint) could not eat unclean animals and drink strong drink (according to many many many verses that you are ignoring)? Does not drinking make one swerve from the faith? Does believing Jesus is good who made a pure freshly squeezed grape juice that didn't intoxicate people make one swerve from the faith?
On the contrary, we are warned not to make our brother to stumble by our drinking. Would not John 2 be a public "green light" approval on having drinking parties or in getting drunk? Would this not lead one to swerve from the faith? Would not ignoring or twisting verses in the OT on ignoring the dangers of alcohol make one to swerve from the faith?
On the contrary, we are warned not to make our brother to stumble by our drinking. Would not John 2 be a public "green light" approval on having drinking parties or in getting drunk? Would this not lead one to swerve from the faith? Would not ignoring or twisting verses in the OT on ignoring the dangers of alcohol make one to swerve from the faith?
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