Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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Words change with the passage of time. The word "wine" is one of them. Then again you would have to look at dictionary.com or research that to know such a thing. Unless of course you are biased towards drinking or something and don't want to see it.
Also, if what you say is even remotely true, then why didn't you answer any my questions?
Also, if what you say is even remotely true, then why didn't you answer any my questions?
And there is the root of your evil . . . uh I mean problem.
You are saying that what dictionary.com (that has been around 15-20 years) has to say about wine should be the final word instead of what Moses had to say 3500 years ago (the real Word).
Other modern dictionaries contradict dictionary.com with respect to the definition of wine.
Of course you know that, because I mentioned it before.
You are saying that what dictionary.com (that has been around 15-20 years) has to say about wine should be the final word instead of what Moses had to say 3500 years ago (the real Word).
Other modern dictionaries contradict dictionary.com with respect to the definition of wine.
Of course you know that, because I mentioned it before.
What is your definition of historical writings?
Obviously, it is anything anybody ever wrote as long as it agrees with your nonsense.
You can find articles and books that say the Holocaust never happened.
Why don't you tell us, in your own words, exactly how fresh fruit and juices were preserved for a hundred years, thousands of years ago.
And then explain why dogs don't bark.
Obviously, it is anything anybody ever wrote as long as it agrees with your nonsense.
You can find articles and books that say the Holocaust never happened.
Why don't you tell us, in your own words, exactly how fresh fruit and juices were preserved for a hundred years, thousands of years ago.
And then explain why dogs don't bark.
What in the world is "strong in fruit" I wonder.
A hard banana?
Even your own source "Drinking in the Old Testament" disagrees with you and says God APPROVED strong alcoholic drink in this verse.
The only religious leader, person of note, etc., whose name I recognize who agrees with you about this verse is Ellen G. White.
You remind me of Ellen G. White.
A hard banana?
Even your own source "Drinking in the Old Testament" disagrees with you and says God APPROVED strong alcoholic drink in this verse.
The only religious leader, person of note, etc., whose name I recognize who agrees with you about this verse is Ellen G. White.
You remind me of Ellen G. White.
Yes, that's just a great idea. Let's promote kids into making alcohol so they can get drunk.
I can see the headline news now.
"Teacher gets students drunk in fermentation class"
Mark 9:42 NLT
But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around your neck.
I can see the headline news now.
"Teacher gets students drunk in fermentation class"
Mark 9:42 NLT
But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone hung around your neck.
Concentrated fruit juices. Strong in the essence of the fruit.
Anyways, here are just a couple sources on the word "Skekar":
No Drinking
Deut. 14:26*Shekhar*- meaning sweet drink or strong drink in the Bible?
The verse simply refers to wine and fruit-cider (yayin and shekhar) at a feast. The Hebrew text does not specify ‘hard’ cider.Hard cider recieves no specific endorsement.*(See also:*broad meaning of wine (yayin) - documented.)Shekhar:*noun, fruit-cider; juice from dates, palms, or various fruits (generally other than grapes), whether it be*unfermented sweet cider, or else*fermented*- (i.e. vinegar or any kind of intoxicating hard cider); sometimes even the fruit itself (Hebrew, Strong’s number: 7941).In Deut. 14:26, shekhar would signify sweet drinks (yayin and shekhar; wine and ‘similar drink’ NKJV). For example, certain types of shekhar (sakar) were permitted amongst the Arabs, and other types of it were not, because of alcohol. Nazarites had no type of wine or shekhar at all - whether alcoholic or not - not even vinegar, nor grapes, nor raisins. The breadth of meaning is apparent throughout the Vulgate and NKJV translations.S. Reynolds says it was broad: ‘it is unjustifiable to claim that shekar must essentially [exclusively] be an intoxicating drink.’Stephen M. Reynolds, 2003, The Biblical Approach to Alcohol, p. 31.
Merriam-Webster Concise Encyclopedia
CIDER: Expressed juice of apples. Apples are ground to a fine pulp and then pressed.*Hard (alcoholic) cider is fermented*in vats for up to three months before being filtered and aged (see fermentation).*Sweet cider is unfermented*and either drunk fresh (as in the U.S.) or mellowed in pressurized tanks first (particularly in Europe). Most cider in the U.S. is now pasteurized. Juice that is pasteurized, treated with a preservative, and often clarified before being hermetically sealed in cans or bottles is marketed as apple juice.Merriam-Webster Concise Encyclopedia, Cider.
The Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature
The Cyclopaedia of biblical literature says shekhar was much broader than ‘strong drink’:‘Luscious, saccharine drink or SWEET SYRUP, especially sugar or honey of dates, or of the palm-tree ; also, by accommodation, occasionally the sweet fruit itself...’‘Date or PALM WINE in its fresh and*unfermented*state...’‘The Mohammedan traveller (A.D. 850) says that “palm wine, if drunk fresh, is sweet like honey; but if kept, it turns to vinegar”...’‘Fermented or intoxicating palm wine... became applied to other kinds of intoxicating drink, whether made from fruit or from grain.’John Kitto & James Taylor, 1849,*Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, ‘DRINK, STRONG’, p. 267-268.
Shekhar: Relation to Sweetness
‘If drunk fresh, is sweet like honey.’ Compare: ‘bitter shall be the sweet-drink [shekhar] to those who drink it.’ (Isaiah 24:9)Frederick Richard Lees, 1868,*Temperance Bible Commentary,*p. 165.F. Lees says shekhar was broad: ‘comes from an Oriental root for ‘sweet-juice,’ and is the undoubted original of the European words (Greek, Latin, Teutonic, and Spanish) for sugar. It is used to this day in Arabia for palm-juice and palm-wine, whether fresh or fermented.’Frederick Richard Lees, 1869,*Textbook of Temperance, p. 122.
Shekhar: Relation to Quenching Thirst or Drunkenness
The related verb shakar means to satisfy, i.e. drink sufficiently to quench the thirst (e.g. Hag. 1:6) - which could be said of having of wine, milk, etc. (Song. 5:1). But sometimes this verb can also mean somebody is becoming tipsy, or worse.‘You have planted much, but harvested little. You eat, but never have enough. You drink, but never have your fill [shakar]. You put on clothes, but are not warm. You earn wages, only to put them in a purse with holes in it.’Hag. 1:6 NIV‘...I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey; I have drunk [shakar] my wine and my milk.’Song. 5:1 NIV
Jerome’s Vulgate translation made a distinction
Jerome (in the Latin Vulgate c. 400 A.D.) made a distinction in the range of meanings. He said: ‘Now every intoxicating drink is in Hebrew called shechar.’ However, he did NOT think everything called shechar was intoxicating - e.g. Deut. 14:26. He said it was better for Christians to avoid drinking whatever ‘disturbs the balance of the mind’. Indeed, the Vulgate often rendered shekhar differently where the context did not require a meaning of intoxication, probably to avoid potential misunderstanding. It often borrowed the Hebrew term shekhar itself (Latin ‘siceram’) - e.g. Deut. 14:26; 29:6; Judg. 13:4,7,14 - rather than using ‘ebriatas’ as for some other passages. Sometimes Jerome rendered shekhar as ‘ebrietas’, but mostly where a context supports the idea of intoxication - e.g. Lev. 10:9 and 1 Sam. 1:15. (Technically, this Latin term ebrietas may be used even of water Ps. 65:9.) In Lev. 10:9 the context specifies that drinking makes us unable to distinguish between the holy and the unholy. So in that instance, Jerome could not help ‘but suspect poison’ as he put it.(Incidentally, the Vulgate simply rendered shekhar as wine (Latin ‘vinum’) but only a few times - e.g. Num. 28:7. As with shekhar, the term ‘vinum’ was not always alcoholic - e.g. Lam. 2:12 Vulgate.)Jerome,*Latin Vulgate Bible translation.Jerome,*Letter LII. To Nepotian.
Wycliffe’s translation made a distinction (c. 1395)
The Wycliffe Bible (based on the Vulgate) made the same distinction. It seems to be responsible for bringing ‘cider’ into the popular English language (formerly: ‘sidur’). Hence the Wycliffe Bible itself has been called the ‘Cider Bible’. English dictionaries (especially American) still let cider be either unfermented or fermented.But eventually the English term ‘cider’ became connected especially to apple-cider. This may be partly why some English translators have considered other terms than this. For many passages, a modern translator may prefer the term ‘similar-drink’, ‘sweet-drink’, or ‘fruit-cider’.*Today’s English dictionaries would probably not even have any entry for ‘cider’ if Jerome had thought ‘ebriatas’ were suitable for Deut. 14:26 and all!Wycliffe Bible translation
Tyndale’s translation made a distinction (c. 1530)
Yet Tyndale’s translation (based on the Hebrew) also made a distinction in the range of meanings, from good drynke to stronge drynke (‘stronge drynke’ in Lev. 10:9; Num 6:3; Deut. 29:6 - but ‘good drynke’ in Num. 28:7; Deut. 14:26). After Tyndale, the KJV subjectively imposed ‘strong drink’ throughout, yet the NKJV again used more objective terms like ‘similar drink’.Tyndale Bible translation
New King James Version makes a distinction
The New King James Version (from Numbers through Judges) generally renders shekhar as ‘similar drink’ within the phrase ‘wine or similar drink’. For Num. 28:7, it simply has ‘drink’, being more objective than ‘strong drink’. But it has ‘strong drink’ in Lev. 10:9 where the context supports the idea of intoxication.In conclusion, the Hebrew term shekhar was a broad term, evidently being unfermented or fermented. See further documentation by John Kitto, Frederick Lees, Lyman Abbott, Benjamin Parsons, Stephen Reynolds.NKJV references to Shekhar‘DRINK, strong’ —‘Sweet drink*(what satiates*or*intoxicates), shekar.’Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible, ‘DRINK, strong’.
Shekhar: Relation to Arabic Term
Also in Arabic, sakar can mean ‘sweet juice’ (Abdel Haleem, 2005, Surat An-Nahl, 16:67). It can mean ‘wholesome drink’ (Yusuf Ali, 1934, Surat An-Nahl, 16:67). Haleem notes the Arabic word sakar variously means ‘wine’, ‘juice’, or ‘vinegar’ (as in the Arabic dictionary al-Mu’jam al-Wasit). Edward William Lane notes some types of it were lawful and some types forbidden.Edward William Lane, 1863, Arabic English Lexicon, Book 1, p. 1391.
Anyways, here are just a couple sources on the word "Skekar":
No Drinking
Deut. 14:26*Shekhar*- meaning sweet drink or strong drink in the Bible?
The verse simply refers to wine and fruit-cider (yayin and shekhar) at a feast. The Hebrew text does not specify ‘hard’ cider.Hard cider recieves no specific endorsement.*(See also:*broad meaning of wine (yayin) - documented.)Shekhar:*noun, fruit-cider; juice from dates, palms, or various fruits (generally other than grapes), whether it be*unfermented sweet cider, or else*fermented*- (i.e. vinegar or any kind of intoxicating hard cider); sometimes even the fruit itself (Hebrew, Strong’s number: 7941).In Deut. 14:26, shekhar would signify sweet drinks (yayin and shekhar; wine and ‘similar drink’ NKJV). For example, certain types of shekhar (sakar) were permitted amongst the Arabs, and other types of it were not, because of alcohol. Nazarites had no type of wine or shekhar at all - whether alcoholic or not - not even vinegar, nor grapes, nor raisins. The breadth of meaning is apparent throughout the Vulgate and NKJV translations.S. Reynolds says it was broad: ‘it is unjustifiable to claim that shekar must essentially [exclusively] be an intoxicating drink.’Stephen M. Reynolds, 2003, The Biblical Approach to Alcohol, p. 31.
Merriam-Webster Concise Encyclopedia
CIDER: Expressed juice of apples. Apples are ground to a fine pulp and then pressed.*Hard (alcoholic) cider is fermented*in vats for up to three months before being filtered and aged (see fermentation).*Sweet cider is unfermented*and either drunk fresh (as in the U.S.) or mellowed in pressurized tanks first (particularly in Europe). Most cider in the U.S. is now pasteurized. Juice that is pasteurized, treated with a preservative, and often clarified before being hermetically sealed in cans or bottles is marketed as apple juice.Merriam-Webster Concise Encyclopedia, Cider.
The Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature
The Cyclopaedia of biblical literature says shekhar was much broader than ‘strong drink’:‘Luscious, saccharine drink or SWEET SYRUP, especially sugar or honey of dates, or of the palm-tree ; also, by accommodation, occasionally the sweet fruit itself...’‘Date or PALM WINE in its fresh and*unfermented*state...’‘The Mohammedan traveller (A.D. 850) says that “palm wine, if drunk fresh, is sweet like honey; but if kept, it turns to vinegar”...’‘Fermented or intoxicating palm wine... became applied to other kinds of intoxicating drink, whether made from fruit or from grain.’John Kitto & James Taylor, 1849,*Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, ‘DRINK, STRONG’, p. 267-268.
Shekhar: Relation to Sweetness
‘If drunk fresh, is sweet like honey.’ Compare: ‘bitter shall be the sweet-drink [shekhar] to those who drink it.’ (Isaiah 24:9)Frederick Richard Lees, 1868,*Temperance Bible Commentary,*p. 165.F. Lees says shekhar was broad: ‘comes from an Oriental root for ‘sweet-juice,’ and is the undoubted original of the European words (Greek, Latin, Teutonic, and Spanish) for sugar. It is used to this day in Arabia for palm-juice and palm-wine, whether fresh or fermented.’Frederick Richard Lees, 1869,*Textbook of Temperance, p. 122.
Shekhar: Relation to Quenching Thirst or Drunkenness
The related verb shakar means to satisfy, i.e. drink sufficiently to quench the thirst (e.g. Hag. 1:6) - which could be said of having of wine, milk, etc. (Song. 5:1). But sometimes this verb can also mean somebody is becoming tipsy, or worse.‘You have planted much, but harvested little. You eat, but never have enough. You drink, but never have your fill [shakar]. You put on clothes, but are not warm. You earn wages, only to put them in a purse with holes in it.’Hag. 1:6 NIV‘...I have eaten my honeycomb and my honey; I have drunk [shakar] my wine and my milk.’Song. 5:1 NIV
Jerome’s Vulgate translation made a distinction
Jerome (in the Latin Vulgate c. 400 A.D.) made a distinction in the range of meanings. He said: ‘Now every intoxicating drink is in Hebrew called shechar.’ However, he did NOT think everything called shechar was intoxicating - e.g. Deut. 14:26. He said it was better for Christians to avoid drinking whatever ‘disturbs the balance of the mind’. Indeed, the Vulgate often rendered shekhar differently where the context did not require a meaning of intoxication, probably to avoid potential misunderstanding. It often borrowed the Hebrew term shekhar itself (Latin ‘siceram’) - e.g. Deut. 14:26; 29:6; Judg. 13:4,7,14 - rather than using ‘ebriatas’ as for some other passages. Sometimes Jerome rendered shekhar as ‘ebrietas’, but mostly where a context supports the idea of intoxication - e.g. Lev. 10:9 and 1 Sam. 1:15. (Technically, this Latin term ebrietas may be used even of water Ps. 65:9.) In Lev. 10:9 the context specifies that drinking makes us unable to distinguish between the holy and the unholy. So in that instance, Jerome could not help ‘but suspect poison’ as he put it.(Incidentally, the Vulgate simply rendered shekhar as wine (Latin ‘vinum’) but only a few times - e.g. Num. 28:7. As with shekhar, the term ‘vinum’ was not always alcoholic - e.g. Lam. 2:12 Vulgate.)Jerome,*Latin Vulgate Bible translation.Jerome,*Letter LII. To Nepotian.
Wycliffe’s translation made a distinction (c. 1395)
The Wycliffe Bible (based on the Vulgate) made the same distinction. It seems to be responsible for bringing ‘cider’ into the popular English language (formerly: ‘sidur’). Hence the Wycliffe Bible itself has been called the ‘Cider Bible’. English dictionaries (especially American) still let cider be either unfermented or fermented.But eventually the English term ‘cider’ became connected especially to apple-cider. This may be partly why some English translators have considered other terms than this. For many passages, a modern translator may prefer the term ‘similar-drink’, ‘sweet-drink’, or ‘fruit-cider’.*Today’s English dictionaries would probably not even have any entry for ‘cider’ if Jerome had thought ‘ebriatas’ were suitable for Deut. 14:26 and all!Wycliffe Bible translation
Tyndale’s translation made a distinction (c. 1530)
Yet Tyndale’s translation (based on the Hebrew) also made a distinction in the range of meanings, from good drynke to stronge drynke (‘stronge drynke’ in Lev. 10:9; Num 6:3; Deut. 29:6 - but ‘good drynke’ in Num. 28:7; Deut. 14:26). After Tyndale, the KJV subjectively imposed ‘strong drink’ throughout, yet the NKJV again used more objective terms like ‘similar drink’.Tyndale Bible translation
New King James Version makes a distinction
The New King James Version (from Numbers through Judges) generally renders shekhar as ‘similar drink’ within the phrase ‘wine or similar drink’. For Num. 28:7, it simply has ‘drink’, being more objective than ‘strong drink’. But it has ‘strong drink’ in Lev. 10:9 where the context supports the idea of intoxication.In conclusion, the Hebrew term shekhar was a broad term, evidently being unfermented or fermented. See further documentation by John Kitto, Frederick Lees, Lyman Abbott, Benjamin Parsons, Stephen Reynolds.NKJV references to Shekhar‘DRINK, strong’ —‘Sweet drink*(what satiates*or*intoxicates), shekar.’Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible, ‘DRINK, strong’.
Shekhar: Relation to Arabic Term
Also in Arabic, sakar can mean ‘sweet juice’ (Abdel Haleem, 2005, Surat An-Nahl, 16:67). It can mean ‘wholesome drink’ (Yusuf Ali, 1934, Surat An-Nahl, 16:67). Haleem notes the Arabic word sakar variously means ‘wine’, ‘juice’, or ‘vinegar’ (as in the Arabic dictionary al-Mu’jam al-Wasit). Edward William Lane notes some types of it were lawful and some types forbidden.Edward William Lane, 1863, Arabic English Lexicon, Book 1, p. 1391.