Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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Jesus explains what defilement is in Matthew 15:11 and Mark 7:15.
So, what was it that was a defilement in Daniel's position?
Was it the content of the food and drink, or what eating it would symbolize?
It was not about the content, but about separation.
And you are very, very mistaken about alcohol in the Law.
Do not be like the Pharisees, placing laws in the mouth of God.
Read the Law for yourself, and find out what is in it.
There is no Law or principle not already found in the Torah (Pentatuech, first 5 books).
Everything else, including the NT, is only further clarifying or revealing what was already written.
Fermented beverages were never against the Law.
Drunkenness was always against the Law.
So, what was it that was a defilement in Daniel's position?
Was it the content of the food and drink, or what eating it would symbolize?
It was not about the content, but about separation.
And you are very, very mistaken about alcohol in the Law.
Do not be like the Pharisees, placing laws in the mouth of God.
Read the Law for yourself, and find out what is in it.
There is no Law or principle not already found in the Torah (Pentatuech, first 5 books).
Everything else, including the NT, is only further clarifying or revealing what was already written.
Fermented beverages were never against the Law.
Drunkenness was always against the Law.
I have already said several times that while freshly squeezed grape juice is naturally fermenting because the yeast on the skin on the grape interacts with the sugars inside, it is not intoxicating yet because it needs time to fully ferment. Hence, why I can say it is unfermented wine. Granted, true 100% unfermented wine would be Welch's grape juice because the fermentation process has been stopped or haulted. The wine Jesus served was not intoxicating. For it was the new wine or fresh juice that came from the cluster of the grape.
As for your question: Again, I stated many times that Christians have a liberty in Christ. This liberty did not exist before the cross while the Old Covenant was still in effect. It is the same with unclean animals. The NT saint can eat unclean animals. However, the OT saint did not have such a liberty.
You are either unaware of the passages that condemn alcoholic drinks in the OT, or you are ignoring them, or you have twisted them to favor alcohol by some wild stretch of the imagination. As for Jesus' words on defilement: well, Christ was preparing everyone for the New Testament. What He was teaching was not in the Law. It was to be a part of the New Testament, which would not go into effect until he died.
Well, I think that I have written this already on this thread, but I believe that it was intended to be a SIGN (Yes, it was a miracle, but it was a SIGN) that, imo stood for impending judgment. John is the only Gospel that records the miracle in Cana, but then the writer follows it with the "cleansing" of the Temple by Jesus. And no, I don't believe that was the full judgment, it was just the beginning.
That is the opposite of what Christ did.
He proclaimed the Law in it's fullest.
He fulfilled the Law in it's fullest.
He showed the Pharisees what the Law really said, and cast off all of the man-made rules that people had attached to the Law.
He also highlighted for them that the Law was not only physical obedience, but even obedience in thoughts and attitudes and motives and wording!
He showed them that NONE of them had obeyed the Law.
He shows us that ALL of us have been found guilty in the sight of God.
Praise Him for eternity! He also gave us a way out of the Judgement we deserve.
What Jesus said about defilement was in accordance to the Law, not against it.
Christ preached nothing contrary to the Law.
If He did preach anything contrary to the Law, yet the Law was still in effect,
then He would be promoting people to sin, no?
From your own argument on this thread, Jesus would not cause others to sin.
He proclaimed the Law in it's fullest.
He fulfilled the Law in it's fullest.
He showed the Pharisees what the Law really said, and cast off all of the man-made rules that people had attached to the Law.
He also highlighted for them that the Law was not only physical obedience, but even obedience in thoughts and attitudes and motives and wording!
He showed them that NONE of them had obeyed the Law.
He shows us that ALL of us have been found guilty in the sight of God.
Praise Him for eternity! He also gave us a way out of the Judgement we deserve.
What Jesus said about defilement was in accordance to the Law, not against it.
Christ preached nothing contrary to the Law.
If He did preach anything contrary to the Law, yet the Law was still in effect,
then He would be promoting people to sin, no?
From your own argument on this thread, Jesus would not cause others to sin.
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Jesus did not break the Law. I never said that. You are putting words in my mouth. Jesus perfectly obeyed the Law. However, Jesus teachings in the New Testament were not in conflict with the Law, though. They complimented the Law because they were based on love (Which was also a part of the Old Testament). For Jesus said that all the Law of the prophets hangs by the two greatest commandments, which is to love the Lord and to love others. Turning the other cheek is love. Holding one's tongue (And preventing what comes out one's mouth so as not to defile oneself) is also love.
Another point, why would Jesus use Alcohol in one of his parables to illustrate his purpose on earth if it was so evil and wrong?
Luke 5:36-39
Luke 5:36-39
[SUP]36 [/SUP]And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Wine skins were for fermenting wine, or in other words Alcohol.
First I will refer you back to the video on the fermentation process of wine. IF you do not want your wine to start fermentation and just be a juice, then you have to heat it to about 150 degrees to destroy the sugars in the juice, ancient culture added a few other bits and bobs to aid preservation, but we have modern chemicals and additives which do the job.
If you leave freshly pressed grape juice to stand it will start to ferment and will bubble from all the gasses given off, people make mistake of putting home made drinks into bottles using freshly squeezed grapes, then find the bottles have burst, even glass bottles will explode from the pressure built up.
This is where wineskin comes in, this was a large container made from leather which would then stretch with the fermentation processes. Once stretched this skin is no longer any good to ferment new wine, it could be used to store wine already fermented, but another attempt to produce a new batch will result in the skin splitting as it can not stretch any further.
New wineskins for new wine, old for old. Also note how we also have the reference in parable that ageing wine makes it better and more expensive than young wine, which is wine that has just finished its fermentation process. Most of the bottles of wine you can buy in your supermarket is young wine.
So again, the question, why would Jesus speak about his role and purpose on earth using alcohol as an illustration if it was wrong to drink it?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Wine skins were for fermenting wine, or in other words Alcohol.
First I will refer you back to the video on the fermentation process of wine. IF you do not want your wine to start fermentation and just be a juice, then you have to heat it to about 150 degrees to destroy the sugars in the juice, ancient culture added a few other bits and bobs to aid preservation, but we have modern chemicals and additives which do the job.
If you leave freshly pressed grape juice to stand it will start to ferment and will bubble from all the gasses given off, people make mistake of putting home made drinks into bottles using freshly squeezed grapes, then find the bottles have burst, even glass bottles will explode from the pressure built up.
This is where wineskin comes in, this was a large container made from leather which would then stretch with the fermentation processes. Once stretched this skin is no longer any good to ferment new wine, it could be used to store wine already fermented, but another attempt to produce a new batch will result in the skin splitting as it can not stretch any further.
New wineskins for new wine, old for old. Also note how we also have the reference in parable that ageing wine makes it better and more expensive than young wine, which is wine that has just finished its fermentation process. Most of the bottles of wine you can buy in your supermarket is young wine.
So again, the question, why would Jesus speak about his role and purpose on earth using alcohol as an illustration if it was wrong to drink it?
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Mother Mary played a vital role in being concern, like it was her household wedding, at the finish of the wine, only as a guest, rather than anyone else, even the host. She hurried to JESUS for solution and she directed the servants of the caterer to do what JESUS tells. i would myself will be restless, if it was in the wedding wedding of my kinsmen. Anyway this might be only a possible coincident and nothing to do with faith.
'Could not have been fermented', a confession with a doubt?
So the men in that wedding drank 'grape juice' all day long until the host ran out of it. So JESUS made gallons and gallons of 'best grape juice', and so they may drink 'grape juice' for two days in a row.
i know you love the church, not be encouraged to take up drinking wine, in misunderstanding the Scripture. And i hope you are convinced with that theory of mine.
Surely not, right dearly beloved?
Only those who drink alcohol beverage carry on drinking for hours through the night or even til dawn. They enjoy together this beverage and enjoy all kinds of entertainments, prepared by the host for their guests.
Only in funerals for all i know commonly, they may serve hot and cold beverages, to those who stay on and mourn with the family of the deceased through the night or until dawn or even two days in some cases, waiting for a far away relative to come.
'Could not have been fermented', a confession with a doubt?
So the men in that wedding drank 'grape juice' all day long until the host ran out of it. So JESUS made gallons and gallons of 'best grape juice', and so they may drink 'grape juice' for two days in a row.
i know you love the church, not be encouraged to take up drinking wine, in misunderstanding the Scripture. And i hope you are convinced with that theory of mine.
Surely not, right dearly beloved?
Only those who drink alcohol beverage carry on drinking for hours through the night or even til dawn. They enjoy together this beverage and enjoy all kinds of entertainments, prepared by the host for their guests.
Only in funerals for all i know commonly, they may serve hot and cold beverages, to those who stay on and mourn with the family of the deceased through the night or until dawn or even two days in some cases, waiting for a far away relative to come.
Again, you do not understand what your "fully ferment" terminology means.
Again, I ask you (for about the fifth time), what do you end up with "fully ferment" has occurred?
Again, I ask that if Jesus provided a nonalcoholic grape drink (which He didn't), if the wedding feast lasted for a week as they often did, wouldn't the beverage ferment?
Welch's Grape Juice did not exist until 1869. There was no such technology to preserve such a beverage in biblical times. Back in those days, unless you immediately consumed the juice of the grape juice, it became wine. And even then, it is possible fermentation had begun.
Again, I ask you (for about the fifth time), what do you end up with "fully ferment" has occurred?
Again, I ask that if Jesus provided a nonalcoholic grape drink (which He didn't), if the wedding feast lasted for a week as they often did, wouldn't the beverage ferment?
Welch's Grape Juice did not exist until 1869. There was no such technology to preserve such a beverage in biblical times. Back in those days, unless you immediately consumed the juice of the grape juice, it became wine. And even then, it is possible fermentation had begun.