Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

[DinoDillinger]

The thing about people choosing to accept Christ in my view not making sense in a practical sense is this. Why are the biggest sinners saved, the people saved in prison that are considered the worst of society and all the 'good' men who reject it.

If it is just a choice that all men have the ability to accept, why is it that not many noble, not many wise are called, but God choose the small things of the world to put to shame the great?

Seems to me that there is more than just our choice to it. Which in the armenian view it is left up to because all men are drawn according to that doctrine.

 

[pickles]

The Biblical model here is that the HOST always provided the wedding garments.

This bloke brought his OWN clobbber!

Interestiing, I did not know that.
Thankyou and God bless. pickles

 

[pickles]

There are many times in the scripture that one seems to contradict the other. I was puzzled by this for a while, when I realized that it is more about faith than making sence. So I just took all in faith. I saw that this is Gods will in his word because all is true. It is what makes the scriptures alive. It also leaves the truth and Judgement To Our Lord Jesus. Sometimes we have to just believe, and trust all understanding to God Our Father. Also wether predestined or not, we still have to believe and accept.
God bless, pickles

 

[Sharp]

That's a very good point pickles. In the bible it says somewhere God's ways are not like our ways, so this all makes sense to him even if we don't understand it.

But I still want to understand it. It affects my understanding of God. So many different and opposing views of predestination have been presented in this thread, and I'm still unsure.

 

[greatkraw]

I'm doing my best to understand predestination, but its confusing. I know there's a million threads on this but they don't answer my questions.

In eternity past God fore ordained that Sharp would CHOOSE to create this thread.

All clear?

 

[greatkraw]

The thing about people choosing to accept Christ in my view not making sense in a practical sense is this. Why are the biggest sinners saved, the people saved in prison that are considered the worst of society and all the 'good' men who reject it.

If it is just a choice that all men have the ability to accept, why is it that not many noble, not many wise are called, but God choose the small things of the world to put to shame the great?

Seems to me that there is more than just our choice to it. Which in the armenian view it is left up to because all men are drawn according to that doctrine.

God doesn't differentiate between big sins and little sins or good sins and bad sins. Sin is sin.

 

[greatkraw]

The more you continue in error the more you will despise the truth and the grace of God. The question puts you and your doctrine in a corner and you do not have an answer, so you have to discredit and belittle the question. You don't want to rub people the wrong way when you think they are responding to you and your doctrine but those that oppose your doctrine you have no use for them and they can just go take a hike. So much for your holiness attitude. It's no wonder you get rejected, you don't have any grace to give people. That's why you believe in these terrible doctrines the way you do. It has nothing to do with interpretation but everything to do with your heart. You malign and accuse believers of being deceived all over the place when they challenge you and the strange way you think concerning those things that are precious to them.

good post


g

 

[pickles]

That's a very good point pickles. In the bible it says somewhere God's ways are not like our ways, so this all makes sense to him even if we don't understand it.

But I still want to understand it. It affects my understanding of God. So many different and opposing views of predestination have been presented in this thread, and I'm still unsure.

I learned long ago that God Our Father holds all understanding for us. When he gives understanding it is to his glory and our good. If you want to understand you have to surrender your want to the will of Our Lord God. Then when you need he will give. The wonderful part is that when you do give him your will he satifies all, you understand without knowing in your mind but you know in his spirit. It does not meen you do not seek, it is less driven and more guided.
God bless, pickles

 

[NoahsDad]

ouden oo-den'
From G3761 and G1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), that is, none, nobody, nothing: - any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
Jas 1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[predestonatoin is in Drirect CONTRADICTION with this whole subject.
Note that in vv 21 the author states Lay apart etc.....if it were All predestoned then WHy would we be commanded to LAY APART?
G659
ἀποτίθημι
apotithēmi
ap-ot-eeth'-ay-mee
From G575 and G5087; to put away (literally or figuratively): - cast off, lay apart (aside, down), put away (off).
this one chapter alone should put to rest all those predestoned to hell fables.......but it probably wont.

 

[cookie39]

I'm doing my best to understand predestination, but its confusing. I know there's a million threads on this but they don't answer my questions.


I have come to the conclusion, that God has predestined some people to be saved. I can't see another way to interpet the following verses:


Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will


Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.



However, if this is the case, what about the people that God didn't predestine to be adopted or chosen? I've heard it said that God doesn't predestine people to hell. What then, was their destiny, if they even had one, before the creation of the world? If they weren't predestined to be believers, what were they predestined to be? Were they predestined at all?


How can it be that God predestines some to be saved, but the ones who aren't predestined, for them it is not said that they are predestined to hell?



1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth



God wants ALL to be saved, and yet, only predestines some to be saved. I understand that God can want something to happen and yet let something else happen.


Also, I understand that the concept of "fairness" doesn't apply here, as, if God were to be completely fair, all would go to hell and none would be saved. God has given a gift to those he has chosen.


What I don't understand is, how can the unsaved not be predestined to hell, if the saved, or elect, are predestined to be saved?

first you must understand God's purpose, and will. and in most of the scriptures you posted it said " MIGHT " not that those predestined will be.

I will put it this way: say that you went to work one day and on your way you thought of everyone who work there, you say to yourself that you were going to invite them ALL over to have dinner and fun, OK: knowing that ALL will not except your invitation, " but NOT KNOWING WHO WIL NOT"; and not knowing who will come and stay; so you say to yourself that I will give All those who come and stay a gitft and to be your everlasting friends. and you say also to yourself that this is how I "WILL" treat them for as long as they are my friends. I will call them this and that.. I will chose them for this and for that..... and those who don't come I will dis them for as long as they are not willing to come; if they "will" come befor the dinner and fun is over they too will receive the gift... I will turn none away... except for thise who choose to say bad things about my kindness (Holy Spirit )

now you see that you have a purpose; dinner and fun. you chosen "all " and you " predestined/ predetermined that those who will come and stay will receive a " gift "

people say that God knows all; and he does... but have you every thought that God choose not to know somethings. not to know the people who will come to Christ and who will not?
and our proof of this is in the scriptures you posted as well as many other scriptures.
as one scripture say . that God is not slack concernig his promises as men count slackness; for he is longsuffering to usward for he WILL that NONE shall perish.

I believe that God knew all will not get saved and that is why the word "MIGHT " appears in all scriptures that speaks about salvation by grace through Christ Jesus,
so he predestined All who will come. to receive the promises he made to Father Abraham. so what God is saying.... I called all, but all will not come; this I know.... so for those you might come... when they come... I will give them the Gift of Life... and God chose not to know who will or wont come.. for he snet the Gospel to all nations, and people, why say you will all; but purposed only a few; that's hypocritical and evil.. and we know that God is neitheer. God predestined what will "HAPPEN" to those who will and those who wont. Not predistened/ prechoose Those who will and those who wont.
God said; we are to draw nigh to him that he may draw nigh to us...

and also: when it say that there is rejoicing in heavens when one soul get saved, not what soul, but; a soul.
although we know that God did create all mankind; but he made some for to do just certaisn things and some he chose after they were born to do certain things;;; like; John the baptist,, and Mose and most of all Christ Jesus..just to name a few... but for the most part mankind was commanded to befruitfull and multiply upon the earth, God giving spirits to all man to become living souls. but not giving us life just so we can burn in hell for eternity... thet is not what God is saying he done when he predestined THEM WHO WILL NOT ; and THOSE WHO WILL.

 

[DinoDillinger]

God doesn't differentiate between big sins and little sins or good sins and bad sins. Sin is sin.

The point I was making was how the armenian view doesn't make practical sense when you look and see who is saved and who isn't.

Salvation doesn't follow the line of who was more inclined to do good or sin before. That's why Paul says things like, and as many as were elect believed. By sight we can't make sense of who believes and who doesn't, so calvinists, who have some support in scripture attribute it to soveriegn grace.

 

[Sharp]

Who was Paul talking to in Ephesians 1:5 and Ephesians 1:11?

Was it believers, Jews, or every person who ever existed?

 

[DinoDillinger]

Who was Paul talking to in Ephesians 1:5 and Ephesians 1:11?

Was it believers, Jews, or every person who ever existed?

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

 

[machew]

Who was Paul talking to in Ephesians 1:5 and Ephesians 1:11?

Was it believers, Jews, or every person who ever existed?

Sharp: If you look at the verses around these verses to get some context, Paul is obviously addressing believers.

He starts out Ephesians with:

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and {who are} faithful in Christ Jesus:

The entire letter is to the believers in Ephesus, so whenever he uses a pronoun like we or us he is referring to the believers at Ephesus. Obviously what he wrote to the Ephesians also pertains to us.

 

[Sharp]

Sorry lol that's not what I meant to ask.

So when Paul says in him we were predestined.....he predestined us to be adopted as his sons..................

Is he saying that him and the saints in Ephesus were predestined....or all believers are predestined?

Machew, how do we know that what Paul said to the Ephesians also pertains to us?

 

[Broern]

"Predestination", "called," etc. are terms used to justify self-serving motive or for self-satisfaction. These are general term not applicable to individuals. There are people predestined to be saved and to go to hell. There are people who are called and those who do not want to obey God. God will never take the "will" of any man. God will never force anyone to serve Him. Even Jesus Christ do not force any disciple to follow Him. Jesus called them but it was up for them to obey. Judas is a disciple but willed and chose to hang himself. He was a part of those predestined and also called; only for destruction. There are those who carry a Bible, lead a big church, looks very saintly, speak well but predestined and called like this Judas.

One thing is very clear. Those who hear and obey ALL the command of Jesus Christ, forget and humble himself is possible to be predestined and called to be save from eternal ****ation. The spirit of man is the one sealed with the Holy spirit but not the soul. The soul of man is his responsibility and will go to heaven or hell as he will.

 

[Buddee]

The spirit of man is the one sealed with the Holy spirit but not the soul. The soul of man is his responsibility and will go to heaven or hell as he will.

Say what???

 

[shad]

Say what???

Buddee, I say the same to these things.

Look at what's coming out of the woodwork and even cyberspace as well. The atmosphere, these days, seems to be charged with all kinds of distractions, diversions and perversions of the gospel and of practical truth that comes from God's word. If this is the mystery of iniquity at work here, then it will only get worse and more prevalent in the days to come. We are living in a time when we really have to hide the word of God in our heart as we put on the whole armour of God, to stand against the wiles of the devil / Eph 6:11. The word 'wiles' is methodeia ~ and as a noun in the plural, it means methods of deceit, crafty and cunning trickery.

These methods and devices of the devil are strategies to get believers to be double-minded about their faith. In James 1:8 & 4:8 you have the word double-minded, dipsuchos ~ that comes from dis - twice and psuche - soul ~ meaning double-souled or double-minded. The believer that is double-minded is unstable because they do not reject a lie nor do they embrace the truth. This is the spirit of Laodicea that is neither hot or cold / Rev 3:15,16. The person that lives in error will probably come to the truth, but God will have to crush them through circumstances to get their heart in a place of humility for that to happen. However, the double-minded man operates neither in a lie or in the truth and is wishy washy and never knows where he has come from or is going.

He is continually and always stumbling because He is not walking in the light of the truth. He is saved but is always questioning his salvation. He sins and fails but doesn't think that God can forgive him this time. His spirit is willing but his flesh is weak and never knows which way to go. When he prays in this state of being double-minded, the word of God says, let not that man think that he shall receive anything from the Lord / James 1:5-8. You can say that this man is in Christ with the truth and all the promised of God available to him, but is being robbed of experiencing the predestination of Christ and the will of God because he will not make up his mind about the truth. His double-mindedness has kept him from being able to receiving the fulness of God's grace in his life and he is always complaining and murmuring that nothing good is happening in his life. When good comes he never sees it, because he is always trusting in his flesh / Jer 17:6.

 

[machew]

Sorry lol that's not what I meant to ask.

So when Paul says in him we were predestined.....he predestined us to be adopted as his sons..................

Is he saying that him and the saints in Ephesus were predestined....or all believers are predestined?

Machew, how do we know that what Paul said to the Ephesians also pertains to us?

Sharp: In this specific case Paul is talking directly to the church of Ephesus. Just reading Paul's letters by itself, sometimes you cannot ascertain whether or not what he says applies to all believers. In order to know this you have to look at them within the context of the rest of Paul's letters. Only then can you conclude, based on the way he wrote his letters, that all of his letters pertain to the whole body of Christ. However, in Ephesians there are clues that what he writes pertains to all the saints, because he often relates his instruction and praises about them back to the privileges and connection to "all the saints" (example: Ephesians 1:13-15, 18)

Sometimes it seems like a random tangent that Paul is writing about stuff that pertains to all the saints, when he is writing instruction to the Ephesians, but he often does this intentionally to connect the Ephesians back to the idea that they are part of a larger body of saints. Through this, you can deduce that what he writes also pertains to us (the whole body of saints).

So to answer your question, we can conclude that what he has written to the Ephesians pertains to us as well.


Hopefully this helps.

Blessings!

 

[Sharp]

Thanks for that explanation Machew! Very helpful.


NOW I just need to figure out what predestined actually means. If it means that God predestined us to be believers or to be saved.....how are the other people not predestined to hell. If the fate of believers has always been sealed, has not the fate of unbelievers always been sealed? Is then God not creating people for destruction, and does this not conflict with God's loving nature?