What does the Law REALLY say?
- Thread starter KohenMatt
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C
I don't think trying is good enough because He said this through Moses: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates" and "now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, 'who will ascend into heaven to get in and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?' nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, 'who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?' No, the word is very near you, it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."
Regarding the eqistles, nothing was added to or taken away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ, by Paul's own teaching found within those letters.
Aside from specific problems of the varied assemblies, and from specific instructions to Paul as to what the path was which was given him, nothing new is added by the letters. They do stress certain important teachings which we should already have a grip on from having read the Gospel, and learned it as delivered by Jesus Christ.
The New Testament Books shine bright light on what had been previously hidden from most men in the Old Testament Book, however once having received the Holy Spirit, we have the new sight to see the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament Book. If any wish to dispute this truth, he has not learned the Old Testament Book, and disputing is futile.
Aside from specific problems of the varied assemblies, and from specific instructions to Paul as to what the path was which was given him, nothing new is added by the letters. They do stress certain important teachings which we should already have a grip on from having read the Gospel, and learned it as delivered by Jesus Christ.
The New Testament Books shine bright light on what had been previously hidden from most men in the Old Testament Book, however once having received the Holy Spirit, we have the new sight to see the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament Book. If any wish to dispute this truth, he has not learned the Old Testament Book, and disputing is futile.
B
You want us to believe that it is acceptable to be under the law (which can not be broken up for it is one law - singular) with all of its commandments and you refuse to accept the understanding of what Paul has written in the following passage. You have your own private interpretation concerning the law and the NT believer and reject what the following passage is saying in the Spirit of truth. It is your dilemma and your disregard as to what Christ has done to the law through the body of His death, burial and resurrection.
Rom 7:4,5,6
4 Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by the Law] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh, so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].
Can this be any clearer? Is (v.6) a hypothetical or is it a declarative statement of truth concerning our relationship to the law, the old code of written regulations? This is not just speaking of the curse of the law or its condemnation, it is speaking of every single regulation regarding how one is to live (including the 10 commandments). We have been discharged from the law and we are to terminate all intercourse with it for we are no longer to serve under it to obey it, for we are now under the grace through the Spirit. We are led of the Spirit through grace and truth and not the regulations or commandments of the law. To be under the law is to grieve the Spirit and to do despite to the Spirit of grace. To be under the law is to reject the death of the crucified body of Christ that we might belong to another and not the law, that we might bear fruit unto God instead of death through the law. If I am not mistaken you have to consider what I have just mentioned as blasphemy or that which is evil. You have done so in the past and I have not seen you change your mind on it.
Rom 7:4,5,6
4 Likewise, my brethren, you have undergone death as to the Law through the [crucified] body of Christ, so that now you may belong to Another, to Him Who was raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 When we were living in the flesh (mere physical lives), the sinful passions that were awakened and aroused up by the Law] were constantly operating in our natural powers (in our bodily organs, in the sensitive appetites and wills of the flesh, so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].
Can this be any clearer? Is (v.6) a hypothetical or is it a declarative statement of truth concerning our relationship to the law, the old code of written regulations? This is not just speaking of the curse of the law or its condemnation, it is speaking of every single regulation regarding how one is to live (including the 10 commandments). We have been discharged from the law and we are to terminate all intercourse with it for we are no longer to serve under it to obey it, for we are now under the grace through the Spirit. We are led of the Spirit through grace and truth and not the regulations or commandments of the law. To be under the law is to grieve the Spirit and to do despite to the Spirit of grace. To be under the law is to reject the death of the crucified body of Christ that we might belong to another and not the law, that we might bear fruit unto God instead of death through the law. If I am not mistaken you have to consider what I have just mentioned as blasphemy or that which is evil. You have done so in the past and I have not seen you change your mind on it.
That is right. I often think of this scripture musing on the way God has spoken to me in the reality of His Gospel through Christ Jesus.
Leviticus 26:9-11
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful , and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
10 And ye shall eat old store , and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
So many use the analogy of the bottle/wine skins as an excuse to say the old and new cannot be put together no matter what. Common sense says that the new wine cannot be put in the old container and that is true. I have even heard that the new wineskin cannot be put into the old wineskin. If you think about that, who would even want to put the old wineskin into a new wineskin. Where'd the wine go? Dah!
The reality of it all is the the wine is the word of God contained in the wineskin which is the covenant whether one is talking about the old or the new. It is true that both of the contained substances (the wine) whether old or new are fit to consume. Ya don't drink the container. In every case the writings of the old covenant were used to prove that the new covenant has validity.
Too much is taught and ministered in churches these day about salvation being some sort of prize a person gets when they go to heaven, trying to make it sound appealing to the lost. Without the reality of the Old Testament writings, the lost haven't the faintest idea that God has made a way through Christ to be salvaged and found.
Think about the song amazing Grace. "I once was lost." The Old testament writings of the law will enlighten the lost to see their state and then desire to be "found." I ask you Sunday school teachers, Pastors, and their congregations, "How do you truly bring the lost to Christ when you have no idea how to present the truth as Paul did, using the same scriptures that he used?" Acts 17:11-12
Leviticus 26:9-11
9 For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful , and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.
10 And ye shall eat old store , and bring forth the old because of the new.
11 And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
So many use the analogy of the bottle/wine skins as an excuse to say the old and new cannot be put together no matter what. Common sense says that the new wine cannot be put in the old container and that is true. I have even heard that the new wineskin cannot be put into the old wineskin. If you think about that, who would even want to put the old wineskin into a new wineskin. Where'd the wine go? Dah!
The reality of it all is the the wine is the word of God contained in the wineskin which is the covenant whether one is talking about the old or the new. It is true that both of the contained substances (the wine) whether old or new are fit to consume. Ya don't drink the container. In every case the writings of the old covenant were used to prove that the new covenant has validity.
Too much is taught and ministered in churches these day about salvation being some sort of prize a person gets when they go to heaven, trying to make it sound appealing to the lost. Without the reality of the Old Testament writings, the lost haven't the faintest idea that God has made a way through Christ to be salvaged and found.
Think about the song amazing Grace. "I once was lost." The Old testament writings of the law will enlighten the lost to see their state and then desire to be "found." I ask you Sunday school teachers, Pastors, and their congregations, "How do you truly bring the lost to Christ when you have no idea how to present the truth as Paul did, using the same scriptures that he used?" Acts 17:11-12
B
You don't seem to understand that passage in (Rom 7) either, and you try to bypass it with all this rhetoric that comes from the old law that we have been discharged from. Why don't you explain (Rom 7:4-6) as it is written. If you are redeemed sinner, you should appreciate that passage and have a good understanding as to what it is saying to the NT believer. For starters just give a basic understanding of what (v.6) is saying and I quote...'But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it having died to what once restrained and held us captive.'
Just-me............My Sunday School teachers kept me coming back with mammon, yes, they did. I was about 4 years old, and they enticed me with Kool-Aid and Oatmeal cookies! Believe it or not, I loved that, and I dunked the cookies; can you believe in Kool-Aid. Anyway, at that age, complicated doctrines were just plain not available to four-year-olds, so we were given songs to sing, told stories from the Bible, and some simple Scriptures to memorize. I was only going to that Bible school one summer before we moved away. It was not in vain though. My religion until the Holy Spirit actually came into me and confirmed me to God was very basic because of the Sunday School teacher; it was "Jesus loves me," from the song. I always knew if nothing else and no one else there was a Good Shepherd Who loves me no matter what, and if I were to stray, He would come after me. He always did, and I love Him for His constant love.
I agree, but what has been discharged us from being help captive? Did God's Word discharge us from the law's condemnation, or has the law been discharge from the ranks of God's children? "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Romans 5:13)
Should we also transfer with our teaching the reverse concept of "Make void the law and sin will not be in your life: because sin is not imputed when there is no law."?
That makes no sense at all when relating scriptures are considered. There is a substantial relationship however.
"Moreover the law entered , that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." (Romans 5:20) This confirms the "grace" of God.
Last of all one needs to understand why the law is mentioned so much to the church if it isn't suppose to be in the church through the grace of God. What's its purpose other than for the lawless? What's its purpose for the believer? It is still here to identify the flesh that wars against the spirit within us. When this battle ends because we no longer esteem the law as good like Paul, we prohibit ourselves from seeing the truth about ourselves in the sight of God. We hear the word, but are not doers of the word. The law is for Christians, like a God given mirror. We look to see if we are presentable, confirming to us this "law of liberty" in Christ.
"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way , and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:23-25)
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.And the times of this ignorance God winked at ; but now commandeth all men every where to repent : (Acts 17:29-30) When you see the law as only a carnal commandment you are in error.
Should we also transfer with our teaching the reverse concept of "Make void the law and sin will not be in your life: because sin is not imputed when there is no law."?
That makes no sense at all when relating scriptures are considered. There is a substantial relationship however.
"Moreover the law entered , that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." (Romans 5:20) This confirms the "grace" of God.
Last of all one needs to understand why the law is mentioned so much to the church if it isn't suppose to be in the church through the grace of God. What's its purpose other than for the lawless? What's its purpose for the believer? It is still here to identify the flesh that wars against the spirit within us. When this battle ends because we no longer esteem the law as good like Paul, we prohibit ourselves from seeing the truth about ourselves in the sight of God. We hear the word, but are not doers of the word. The law is for Christians, like a God given mirror. We look to see if we are presentable, confirming to us this "law of liberty" in Christ.
"For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way , and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (James 1:23-25)
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.And the times of this ignorance God winked at ; but now commandeth all men every where to repent : (Acts 17:29-30) When you see the law as only a carnal commandment you are in error.
Last edited:
C
If Paul were speaking against the whole law he wouldn't have said "do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law" earlier and "the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good" later in the letter. Only when one pulls verses out of context would come to the conclusion that the law is no more.
The law he referred to in the context is that slave must obey the master - if one reads earlier in Romans 6:15-18 and further in Romans 7:14
Thanks for the challenge though.
The law he referred to in the context is that slave must obey the master - if one reads earlier in Romans 6:15-18 and further in Romans 7:14
Thanks for the challenge though.
Sacrifices - Part 3 of 6
113 Deuteronomy 15:19 - Not to do any work with a dedicated beast.
All the firstling males that come of thy herd and of thy flock thou shalt sanctify unto the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work with the firstling of thy bullock, nor shear the firstling of thy sheep.
114 Deuteronomy 15:19 - Not to shear a dedicated beast.
All the firstling males that come of thy herd and of thy flock thou shalt sanctify unto the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work with the firstling of thy bullock, nor shear the firstling of thy sheep.
115 Exodus 34:25 - Slaughter not Pesach (Passover) lamb with chametz (leaven).
Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
116 Exodus 12:10 - Leave not sacrificial portions of Pesach (Passover) lamb overnight.
And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
117 Exodus 12:10 - Allow not meat of Pesach (Passover) lamb to remain till morning.
And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
118 Deuteronomy 16:4 - No meat of Nisan 14th Festive Offering remain till day 3.
And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
119 Numbers 9:12 - No meat of 2nd Pesach (Passover) lamb Offering remain till morning.
They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
120 Leviticus 22:30 - No meat of Thanksgiving Offering to remain till morning.
On the same day it shall be eaten up; ye shall leave none of it until the morrow: I am the LORD.
121 Exodus 12:46 - Not to break any bones of Pesach (Passover) lamb offering.
In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
122 Numbers 9:12 - Not to break any bones of 2nd Pesach (Passover) lamb offering.
They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
123 Exodus 12:46 - Not to remove Pesach (Passover) offering from where it is eaten.
In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
124 Leviticus 6:17 - Not to bake the residue of a meal offering with leaven
It shall not be baken with leaven. I have given it unto them for their portion of my offerings made by fire; it is most holy, as is the sin offering, and as the trespass offering.
113 Deuteronomy 15:19 - Not to do any work with a dedicated beast.
All the firstling males that come of thy herd and of thy flock thou shalt sanctify unto the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work with the firstling of thy bullock, nor shear the firstling of thy sheep.
114 Deuteronomy 15:19 - Not to shear a dedicated beast.
All the firstling males that come of thy herd and of thy flock thou shalt sanctify unto the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work with the firstling of thy bullock, nor shear the firstling of thy sheep.
115 Exodus 34:25 - Slaughter not Pesach (Passover) lamb with chametz (leaven).
Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
116 Exodus 12:10 - Leave not sacrificial portions of Pesach (Passover) lamb overnight.
And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
117 Exodus 12:10 - Allow not meat of Pesach (Passover) lamb to remain till morning.
And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
118 Deuteronomy 16:4 - No meat of Nisan 14th Festive Offering remain till day 3.
And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
119 Numbers 9:12 - No meat of 2nd Pesach (Passover) lamb Offering remain till morning.
They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
120 Leviticus 22:30 - No meat of Thanksgiving Offering to remain till morning.
On the same day it shall be eaten up; ye shall leave none of it until the morrow: I am the LORD.
121 Exodus 12:46 - Not to break any bones of Pesach (Passover) lamb offering.
In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
122 Numbers 9:12 - Not to break any bones of 2nd Pesach (Passover) lamb offering.
They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
123 Exodus 12:46 - Not to remove Pesach (Passover) offering from where it is eaten.
In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
124 Leviticus 6:17 - Not to bake the residue of a meal offering with leaven
It shall not be baken with leaven. I have given it unto them for their portion of my offerings made by fire; it is most holy, as is the sin offering, and as the trespass offering.
C
I did a word search on www.blueletterbible.org for "laws" and found many bible verses used the word "laws" including in the NT Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.
and Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.
So what gives?
and Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.
So what gives?
http://blb-ra.blueletterbible.org/mcgee_j_vernon/Hbr/58074_Hebrews_10_10-18.mp3
Not following rules and regulations for the sake of peace and love causes lawlessness, like any sect of society, and then we read in scripture that the law is for the lawless. There is no escape from God's Word no matter what time in history they were delivered. The only escape is to be placed in the position of salvation through Christ's grace. If one believes that this salvation is going to take the law out of a person's life, then their belief causes them to be in a state of lawlessness by them rejecting of the law. Is that comprehendable?
Not following rules and regulations for the sake of peace and love causes lawlessness, like any sect of society, and then we read in scripture that the law is for the lawless. There is no escape from God's Word no matter what time in history they were delivered. The only escape is to be placed in the position of salvation through Christ's grace. If one believes that this salvation is going to take the law out of a person's life, then their belief causes them to be in a state of lawlessness by them rejecting of the law. Is that comprehendable?
It appears that the translators wanted to take the law out of the covenant, and take the relationship between God and Israel out of the Covenant?
It appears that the transgressors wanted to take the law out of the covenant, and take the relationship between God and Israel out of the Covenant?
Corrected that for you 
It appears that the translators wanted to take the law out of the covenant, and take the relationship between God and Israel out of the Covenant?
It appears that the transgressors wanted to take the law out of the covenant, and take the relationship between God and Israel out of the Covenant?
LOL Good one.