John 5:3 and Baptismal Regeneration Refuted

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,905
13,212
113
#61
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1:5-10)

Christ's blood, and Christ's blood alone washes away sin.
what is prerequisite is that we confess our sin before Him.
holding a public ritual washing & initiation ceremony is tantamount to confessing sin, repentance, and declaring discipleship.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
(Romans 10:9-13)

baptism is a ritual ceremony that declares publicly a state of sin, a need for cleansing, and a faith that the one whose name you are baptized under is able to cleanse or perfect you. it is a declaration of belief and discipleship. the very same thing is done by saying aloud "i am a sinner, only Christ can redeem me, and i dedicate myself to following Him"

i notice that the apostle to the Jews, who were culturally obsessed with law & ritual, hardly ever fails to mention water baptism, though he is careful in his letter to point out that the actual physical washing away of dirt is not what cleanses & saves us, but the faithful reply of a heart that believes in the resurrection of Christ.
but the apostle to the gentiles, who are not so culturally obsessed with ceremony, can't even remember who he's baptized (1 Corinthians 1:10-17), but is glad that it wasn't many, because people were totally missing the point that it is God who cleanses you, God who redeems you, faith and the grace of God that saves you, not a vat of water or a man who pushes you under and says some magic words.

Jesus went about healing people and forgiving sins, not instructing people to be baptized, but wiping away their sin by His word, and saying that their faith has made them whole. i rather think this destroys the idea that God only forgives sins at the moment of ritual water baptism. the scriptures teach that faith, subsequent repentance originating in faith, and the reactive confession of sin are prerequisite to forgiveness. people that sell bathtubs teach that taking a bath forgives sin.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
#62
Sorry, but you have not been giving me biblical truth but a lot of bad exegesis and your theological bias
I have been giving you Biblical truth, but unfortunately you just don't have ears to hear. The gospel is HID to those who DON'T BELIEVE (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). The NATURAL MAN cannot understand and is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED (1 Corinthians 2:14). You can't see anything past your church of Christ indoctrination/theological bias and I am tired of wasting my time beating a dead horse. Let me know when you are ready to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#63
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he that believeth not shall be damned. The omission of baptized with "believeth not" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief.

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation (dipped or condemned), then Jesus surely would have mentioned it in the following verses (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Do you just simply go by what the Lord Jesus Christ said there 9 different times? As we can clearly see, what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of those complete statements? BELIEVES. What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
What our Lord Jesus does is makes it clear that those who truly believe in Him will do the things He told us to do.
He told us to believe in Him, repent, be baptized, confess Him before other men....so on.

He tells why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do the things I say ????

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
 
A

Alligator

Guest
#64
I have been giving you Biblical truth, but unfortunately you just don't have ears to hear. The gospel is HID to those who DON'T BELIEVE (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). The NATURAL MAN cannot understand and is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED (1 Corinthians 2:14). You can't see anything past your church of Christ indoctrination/theological bias and I am tired of wasting my time beating a dead horse. Let me know when you are ready to REPENT and BELIEVE THE GOSPEL.
Its quite funny how you let the church of Christ get under your skin. If I were you, I would spend a lot less time worrying about the church of Christ and a lot more time worrying about your own standing with God
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
#65
Its quite funny how you let the church of Christ get under your skin. If I were you, I would spend a lot less time worrying about the church of Christ and a lot more time worrying about your own standing with God
I didn't say the church of Christ gets under my skin. I once attended a church of Christ so I understand their flawed theology and how they keep their members duped. I understand where my standing with God is now after having placed my faith exclusively in Christ for salvation vs. prior to my conversion to Christ, while still attending the church of Christ and trusting in water and works salvation. You should be concerned instead of amused.
 
A

Alligator

Guest
#66
I didn't say the church of Christ gets under my skin. I once attended a church of Christ so I understand their flawed theology and how they keep their members duped. I understand where my standing with God is now after having placed my faith exclusively in Christ for salvation vs. prior to my conversion to Christ, while still attending the church of Christ and trusting in water and works salvation. You should be concerned instead of amused.
You didn't have to say it. It's obvious. Keep,their members duped?? Now I'm really amused. Church of Christ members have and read their bibles like everyone else. You are the one who has been duped. You are a Calvinist to,the core and anyone who doesn't agree with you is lost, isn't that about right?
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
#67
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he that believeth not shall be damned. The omission of baptized with "believeth not" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief.
your reasoning is a joke....the scripture says....believeth and is baptised shall be saved...you are now saying believeth and not baptised shall be saved....how on earth do you come up with those type of reasoning? That is speaking with a forked tongue....It cannot be both so which is it? Salvation rest on belief we all agree...that is why the scripture says ......He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.....




If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation (dipped or condemned), then Jesus surely would have mentioned it in the following verses (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Do you just simply go by what the Lord Jesus Christ said there 9 different times? As we can clearly see, what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of those complete statements? BELIEVES. What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
What is the required amount of times the scripture must say something before you obey? Are you saying Jesus made a mistake...who gave you authority to override scripture? (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized)
Brother one must believe in Christ and Christ teaches we must be baptised...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,905
13,212
113
#68
Brother one must believe in Christ and Christ teaches we must be baptised...
Jesus Himself never told commanded anyone to be baptized, and Jesus Himself never baptized anyone with water.

He told His disciples to make disciples, baptizing (initiating and confirming discipleship) them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
 
Mar 28, 2014
4,300
31
0
#69
Jesus Himself never told commanded anyone to be baptized, and Jesus Himself never baptized anyone with water.

He told His disciples to make disciples, baptizing (initiating and confirming discipleship) them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
forked tongue ...he never told, commanded anyone....he told his disciples....so Peter , Paul and all the other disciples were just doing their own thing....and Peter probably made this up...
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
#70
Jesus Himself never told commanded anyone to be baptized, and Jesus Himself never baptized anyone with water.

He told His disciples to make disciples, baptizing (initiating and confirming discipleship) them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Amen brother! Many people simply don't understand what it means to BELIEVE (trust, rely exclusively) in Christ (for salvation) in order to be saved. Instead, they believe (trust, rely) in "water and works" (for salvation) and call that believing in Christ.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
#71
Brother one must believe in Christ and Christ teaches we must be baptised...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
Jesus said whoever does not believe will be condemned. Jesus never said whoever is not baptized will be condemned. So Jesus never said must be baptized/baptized or condemned. Who gave you authority to teach otherwise? What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross who came to believe in Jesus in the same day that he died, yet was unable to get water baptized?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,905
13,212
113
#72
forked tongue ...he never told, commanded anyone....
poor editing on my part. sorry.

what do you think Peter meant by saying we should be baptized for the remission of sins?
do you think He and Paul & John are preaching different gospels?
because Paul says believe with your heart and confess with your mouth. John says only the blood of Christ remits sins. whoever wrote the book of Hebrews said no sin is remitted without blood.

how do you reconcile that? do you just suppose that Peter had it right and Paul & John were mistaken, and Jesus just forgot to mention how important magic bathtubs are?

surely, if all these are giving us the same truth, and there is only one baptism, it is not simply a matter of washing off some dirt in a pond.

so what does baptism mean?



 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
#73
You didn't have to say it. It's obvious.
Go ahead and believe that if it's important to you.

Keep, their members duped?? Now I'm really amused.
There is nothing amusing about being duped.

Church of Christ members have and read their bibles like everyone else.
Yet not everyone correctly interprets the Bible and believes the gospel.

You are the one who has been duped. You are a Calvinist to, the core and anyone who doesn't agree with you is lost, isn't that about right?
I was duped while growing up in the Roman Catholic church and while I attended the church of Christ, but not any more. Now I BELIEVE the gospel. So I am a Calvinist to the core? Let's see. Do I believe in unconditional election? No. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved. WE CHOOSE to believe or refuse to believe. I don't believe in limited atonement or irresistible grace either. I'm not even close to being a 5 point Calvinist so how can you say that I'm a Calvinist to the core? Would you like to reconsider your accusation? It's common for people in the church of Christ to call evangelical Christians Calvinists. If someone does not agree with me they are lost? I didn't write the Bible. Jesus said in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. I agree with Jesus. I don't "add water and works" to the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).
 
A

Alligator

Guest
#74
Jesus said whoever does not believe will be condemned. Jesus never said whoever is not baptized will be condemned. So Jesus never said must be baptized/baptized or condemned. Who gave you authority to teach otherwise? What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What did Jesus say to the thief on the cross who came to believe in Jesus in the same day that he died, yet was unable to get water baptized?
oh come on, have you still not grasped the reason the thief did not have to be baptized by now? I Might ask, who gave you the authority to change what Jesus said in March 16: 15–16 and Peter in Acts 2:38?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
#75
What our Lord Jesus does is makes it clear that those who truly believe in Him will do the things He told us to do.
And why wouldn't they if they truly believe? Believe yet refuse to be water baptized and never confess Him before men? Oxymoron.

He told us to believe in Him, repent, be baptized, confess Him before other men....so on.
Repent actually precedes believing in Him. Water baptism, confessing Him before other men, and good works in general follow.

He tells why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do the things I say????

Luke 6:46-49
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
So who does the things which the Lord says? Believers or unbelievers? Without faith it's possible or impossible to please God?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,142
13,149
113
58
#76
oh come on, have you still not grasped the reason the thief did not have to be baptized by now? I Might ask, who gave you the authority to change what Jesus said in March 16:15–16 and Peter in Acts 2:38?
Here we go. In order to explain away the thief on the cross being saved through faith apart from water baptism, people resort to either saying that water baptism was not necessary for salvation until the New Covenant was established after Jesus died (or how do we know that the thief was not already baptized), yet prior to the death of Jesus, before the New Covenant was established, John was preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4).

I didn't change what Jesus said in Mark 16:15-16, I simply harmonized it with what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. Who gave you the authority to change what Jesus said in these 9 verses in John? I didn't change what Peter said in Acts 2:38. I simply harmonized it with what Peter said in Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9 and what Paul said in Acts 16:31. You gave you the authority to change what Peter and Paul said in these passages of scripture?

I'll be waiting for you to admit that your false accusation about me being a "Calvinist to the core" was in error. Why would you make such an accusation? Does Calvinism get under your skin?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,905
13,212
113
#77
who gave you the authority to change what Jesus said in March 16: 15–16 and Peter in Acts 2:38?
what did Peter say in Acts 3:17-21, after healing the lame man in front of the temple?

And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
(Acts 3:17-21)

did Peter change the requirement for remission of sin? or is this not the same gospel?

if water baptism is the key thing here -- why didn't he mention it?
what is baptism for? what does it mean? why do we become baptized? how​?
what is true baptism and what is simply a figure?
if circumcision of the flesh is meaningless but circumcision of the heart is what is required,
how is it washing of the flesh is meaningful and washing of the soul secondary to the physical rite?
 
Last edited:

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
#78
Baptism never regenerates in the Bible. No kind of baptism regenerates in any Bible verse. For $64,000, quote me one verse where both words occur: 1) baptize and 2) regeneration.

BTW,

For by grace you have been saved [if you have been saved]
by faith, and that not of yourselves,
not of works lest anyone should boast.

1) water baptism is a human work, therefore water baptism does not save.

2) supposed proof texts (like Acts 2:38) where "water" does not occur, prove nothing about water baptism.

3) only 1 MUST-I-DO is in the Bible for salvation = believe/trust.

Is it my imagination, or is it a fact that the "Church of Christ" people who argue for a grocery list of things to do for salvation, have "believe" in their minds as meaning "convinced it is so"? When I walked the aisle to join the church (not to be saved) as a child, the preacher asked me, "Do you believe THAT Jesus is the Son of God." I said, "Yes." But that is not saving faith. When the scripture tells us that the must-I-do for salvation is believe on the Lord Jesus, it does not mean BELIEVE THAT He is the Son of God. It means to trust Him as Savior.

I grew up without trusting Christ as Savior, though I had joined the church & been dunked in water (in a river). I was taught the false non-gospel of Mat 25 sheep & goats. I did not depend on Christ to get me to Heaven in the end. I thought it was self-righteous nonsense to know that "when the roll is called up yonder I'll be there." No body told me why Christ died on the cross. It was learn the teachings of Jesus & imitate Him, & do His teachings. There was no salvation.

Trusting Him as Savior involves dropping the notion that he is a mere chance-giver.

Thus not only is the POV wrong that
there are a grocery list of things to do (including the human work of water dunking) for salvation, but it appears to me that the grocery listers do not have believe defined correctly.

When the Bible reiterates over & over (1000 times?) that salvation is offered for faith/belief only, the meaning of faith is not intellectual faith; the meaning is not to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. It means to trust Him.

Thus I urge the reader to actually trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny. Repent of the sin of reducing Him to a mere chance-giver. Stop your arguing and start your trusting. He paid for our sins all on the cross. He cried, "It is finished."
 
A

Alligator

Guest
#79
Go ahead and believe that if it's important to you.



There is nothing amusing about being duped.



Yet not everyone correctly interprets the Bible and believes the gospel.



[/QUOTE=mailmandan;1684383I] was duped while growing up in the Roman Catholic church and while I attended the church of Christ, but not any more. Now I BELIEVE the gospel. So I am a Calvinist to the core? Let's see. Do I believe in unconditional election? No. I don't believe that God fatalistically determines who will and won't be saved. WE CHOOSE to believe or refuse to believe. I don't believe in limited atonement or irresistible grace either. I'm not even close to being a 5 point Calvinist so how can you say that I'm a Calvinist to the core? Would you like to reconsider your accusation? It's common for people in the church of Christ to call evangelical Christians Calvinists. If someone does not agree with me they are lost? I didn't write the Bible. Jesus said in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. I agree with Jesus. I don't "add water and works" to the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).
You are at least part Calvinist and any part is too much. Lol. Nevertheless, I will withdraw my comment if you are willing to withdraw your "Campbellite" comment about church members.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,905
13,212
113
#80
You are at least part Calvinist and any part is too much. Lol. Nevertheless, I will withdraw my comment if you are willing to withdraw your "Campbellite" comment about church members.
"calvanist" ?? lol.
you are the same gator that harped on him for mentioning the COC, right?

does John Calvin get under your bumpy reptilian skin too? :)

let's all stick to Christ and what God has wrought, not men. Paul is ours, Peter is ours, John is ours, Apollos is ours, Christ is ours, Calvin is ours, Campbell is ours. the only gospel we need to worry over is that of Jesus.

belong to Christ, not to any man or any denomination.