We establish the Law...but how?

[Elin]

exactly.....Rom 6:14-15 says that we are not under THE law. But, now listen: Rom 3:31 we (Christians) do not void law, we establish (uphold, continue) it (notice that 'the' is added in the KJV?). So if we continue law, then we have law....The Law of Christ, the Law of the Sprint?

Yes, let us harmonize. We are not under THE Law, we are under God's Law, just as Paul said we were.

THE Law is the Mosaic law.

The Mosaic law is God's Law, given to Moses by God.

What kind of unorthodox nonsense is this?

 

[Kerry]

When will you realize that it is the cross and not what you do. you might as well be Buddhist and do for your God what you can do.

There is nothing you can do for God, because He does it for you. If you are looking for self praise then join ISIS.

 

[cfultz3]

no...and yes.
no since we are to obey, and yes, since it is God working in us through grace that makes us want to obey.

i mean, think about it...of you have offended someone (sinned against them), and that person
freely and fully pardons you...not ever holding it against you, bringing it up again, etc...
if that person grants you forgiveness, not requiring you to perform some great feat to prove you're sorry...
if that person just loves you...
would not that engender loyalty in your heart toward that person?
i, for one, would feel so amazingly blessed i would never want to offend that person again!

if it works that way horizontally with one another, why in the world would we think
it works differently with God?
the more grace and love we receive from God, the more we love God and want to pursue Him, right?

walking in obedience has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.
we need to get it out of our heads that sanctification precedes justification.
we need to reject the idea that if we live a certain way, and are successful in it,
we will be declared righteous at the end.

we have come to view grace as divine assistance for moral transformation
rather than a totally one sided rescue.

i don't mean to say we are not to live 'morally', but it's a mistake to preach
morality as the way to be saved.
ultimately, it's not our performance for God,
it's Jesus' performance for us. ♥

I greatly respect you Psychomom. And I will leave it at that. Thank you for taking the time to write to me, and I know it came from your heart.

Please do not misunderstand me, I speak to you as a Brother. If all people saw me preach was salvation by morality, then I have failed. I have failed not only the readers, but also God. I have failed God because I was not able to show people God is still a God of righteous. I have failed the reader because I was not able to show them that salvation comes from an active faith.

What more can be said, but thank you Psychomom.

Your Brother,

Chris

 

[kennethcadwell]

THE Law is the Mosaic law.

The Mosaic law is God's Law, given to Moses by God.

What kind of unorthodox nonsense is this?

I will say it again, when the scriptures say we are not under the law, it is speaking of the written ordinances of the mosaic law.

When it says we establish the law, it is talking about Gods moral laws of love, and forgiveness. Not walking in sin, but in light.

 

[cfultz3]

THE Law is the Mosaic law.

The Mosaic law is God's Law, given to Moses by God.

What kind of unorthodox nonsense is this?

Ask Paul...

 

[Elin]

Except the ones you think are a doctrine from hell....your own words.....

Yes, the doctrine you erroneously deduced from them, not the Scriptures themselves, is the doctrine from hell.

It says, 'Come and follow Me'. That is a command, not a suggestion that He will do all for you. Even He has a yoke.
The Sprint is not called Doer, but Helper.

There you go again, setting yourself against the Scriptures in Php 1:6, 2:13; 1Co 1:8; 1Th 5:24.

 

[Elin]

Since you say it is a straw man, then I guess it all over. Don't you get tired of saying that? Like it is a magic thing which will prove something?

The record proves it.

 

[cfultz3]

Yes, the doctrine you erroneously deduced from them, not the Scriptures themselves, is the doctrine from hell.


There you go again, setting yourself against the Scriptures in Php 1:6, 2:13; 1Co 1:8; 1Th 5:24.

I will have no more of your nonsense. You know you equated those 6 verses as a doctrine from hell because they did not agree to your believes.

You know that Jesus said I will send a Helper. You very well know He did not say I will send a Doer. Hogwash.

I will ignore you from now on, you double-tongue.

 

[Elin]

THE Law is the Mosaic law.

The Mosaic law is God's Law, given to Moses by God.

What kind of unorthodox nonsense is this?

Ask Paul...

He told me God's law
for those under the old covenant was the Mosaic law, and
for those in the new covenant, it is Christ's law (Mt 22:37-39).

 

[Elin]

I will have no more of your nonsense.
You know you equated those 6 verses as a doctrine from hell because they did not agree to your believes.

The record speaks for itself.

You know that Jesus said I will send a Helper. You very well know He did not say I will send a Doer. Hogwash.

There you go again, setting yourself against the Scriptures in Php 1:6, 2:13; 1Co 1:8; 1Th 5:24.

 

[crossnote]

exactly.....Rom 6:14-15 says that we are not under THE law. But, now listen: Rom 3:31 we (Christians) do not void law, we establish (uphold, continue) it (notice that 'the' is added in the KJV?). So if we continue law, then we have law....The Law of Christ, the Law of the Sprint?

Yes, let us harmonize. We are not under THE Law, we are under God's Law, just as Paul said we were.

Thank you for that opportunity to show how one is to harmonize Scripture.

Do you have difficulty saying, "We are not under law but under grace? as in...

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Rom 6:14)

 

[crossnote]

We are not under law ( mosaic written laws in ordinance, law of sin and death ), We establish the law of the moral values of God that was taught in the law and our Lord by walking in love, forgiveness, and a helping nature.

For if you walk in love, sin will have no dominion over you because there will be no desire to sin, and if a temptation to sin arises we can through the help of the Holy Spirit resist that temptation and not let that sin become full blown in our life again.

You quoted me on this verse...
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Rom 6:14)

Surely you haven't difficulty saying it without rewording it?

 

[Elin]

no...and yes.
no since we are to obey, and yes, since it is God working in us through grace that makes us want to obey.

i mean, think about it...of you have offended someone (sinned against them), and that person
freely and fully pardons you...not ever holding it against you, bringing it up again, etc...
if that person grants you forgiveness, not requiring you to perform some great feat to prove you're sorry...
if that person just loves you...
would not that engender loyalty in your heart toward that person?
i, for one, would feel so amazingly blessed i would never want to offend that person again!

if it works that way horizontally with one another, why in the world would we think
it works differently with God?
the more grace and love we receive from God, the more we love God and want to pursue Him, right?

walking in obedience has nothing whatsoever to do with our salvation.
we need to get it out of our heads that sanctification precedes justification.
we need to reject the idea that if we live a certain way, and are successful in it,
we will be declared righteous at the end.

we have come to view grace as divine assistance for moral transformation
rather than a totally one sided rescue.

i don't mean to say we are not to live 'morally', but it's a mistake to preach
morality as the way to be saved.
ultimately, it's not our performance for God,
it's Jesus' performance for us. ♥​

I greatly respect you Psychomom. And I will leave it at that. Thank you for taking the time to write to me, and I know it came from your heart.​

But no agreement expressed with such a wonderful explanation of the Christian life.

Amazing. . .







​

 

[chubbena]

Yes for those who have never sinned ...Jesus.
Otherwise the law works death in us ...
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

This is what it's written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations.

Some took it as foregone of law to be preached.

To understand the meaning of "the strength of sin is the law" one should read "What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”[SUP] [/SUP]But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

 

[kennethcadwell]

You quoted me on this verse...
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Rom 6:14)

Surely you haven't difficulty saying it without rewording it?

I may use different wording, but the same meaning.
The mosaic law had punishments for sins, we no longer suffer those punishments nor do we have to offer sacrifices for those sins. Lord Jesus took our punishment, and became our sacrifice once and for all.
So this also applies to why sin has no dominion over us. No longer do we face the punishments from the mosaic law and have to offer sacrifices, but we also have the Holy Spirit that helps us to keep from falling back into sin.

 

[crossnote]

If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

This is what it's written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations.

Some took it as foregone of law to be preached.

To understand the meaning of "the strength of sin is the law" one should read "What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

Thanks for bringing up this last part in Rom 7, it dovetails nicely with 1Cor 15..

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Co 15:54-57)

Notice the struggle goes on until..."when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,"

 

[psychomom]

ah, the Helper...the Advocate.

Greek paraklétos.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon puts it thusly:

"one who pleads another's cause before a judge, a pleader, counsel for defense, legal assistant; an advocate"

universally, one who pleads another's cause with one, an intercessor

HELPS word studies says:

paráklētos (from 3844 /pará, "from close-beside" and 2564 /kaléō, "make a call") – properly, a legal advocate who makes the right judgment-call because close enough to the situation. 3875 /paráklētos ("advocate, advisor-helper") is the regular term in NT times of an attorney (lawyer) – i.e. someone giving evidence that stands up in court.

the verdict?
not guilty. actually, innocent,
for Jesus' sake.
the One Who upheld the Law in all its rigorous and righteous requirements.

 

[chubbena]

Thanks for bringing up this last part in Rom 7, it dovetails nicely with 1Cor 15..

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Co 15:54-57)

Notice the struggle goes on until..."when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,"

What struggle if one believes to obey the Lord is one thing and to keep the law is another?
But Paul wrote: "I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."
He also wrote: "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."
Not until one lets the Holy Spirit in charge would he be able to submit to God's law.

 

[cfultz3]

Do you have difficulty saying, "We are not under law but under grace? as in...

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Rom 6:14)

That is because this conversation is about Law, you made the thread yourself.

No, I am not afraid to say "we are under Grace". But, that does not give us a license to sin.

If you wish to talk about Grace, then, by all means, open a thread and I will reply.

 

[cfultz3]

THE Law is the Mosaic law.

The Mosaic law is God's Law, given to Moses by God.

What kind of unorthodox nonsense is this?

Have you asked Paul yet?

And those who liked that post, have you asked him what unorthodox nonsense he was talking about?