Contradiction of WORDS

[Elin]

Naaman is an example that proves 1)
God can attach conditions to His free gifts. and 2) working to meet those conditions can never earn the free gift.

Yes, and the healing of the paralytic to whom Jesus said take up his mat and walk

had to do those things in order to be healed.

More trying to support your non-Biblical theology by redefining the meaning of the word "free,"

which means just that.

 

[dcontroversal]

So a completely free gift? Would you say that Hitler was given that gift?

Hitler, like all men had been dealt a measure of faith, but chose not to believe, so no, Hitler was not given that FREE GIFT of eternal salvation.....the problem comes when we make it of ourselves and not of God.....we believe into the FAITH and WORK of Jesus and that is what saves us......Hitler by his actions proved that he was not a believer and did not receive the Gift of eternal life dia Jesus and His faith and work......

Salvation-->FAITH into Christ and His work--->genuine faith is a gift as Christ has done the work...ANY WORKS we do after biblical salvation (being born of the Spirit) is not US doing the works as it is Christ dia the Holy Spirit through US that does the work and that is why ALL glory goes to GOD as we are a LIVING SACRIFICE-->I.E. GOD through US does the works which prove that we have BEEN BORN AGAIN.....This is also another reason that it is a gift as we are not the on

Jesus was/is THE SON of GOD by BIRTH (HOLY SPIRIT) the works that he done when he came on the scene proves that HE was the SON of GOD, but the works did not add to and or help him in that SONSHIP as that was by BIRTH dia the HOLY SPIRIT....

 

[SeaBass]

how did Nebudchanezzar "earn" God's grace?

before he knew of God, the Lord blessed him and called him His servant.
later, according to the Lord's will, Daniel and others witnessed to him of the true God.
Nebudchanezzar needed hard teachings to learn -- to humble him, the Lord gave him to madness for 7 years.

and how did it please the Lord to return Nebudchanezzar to sanity?
when 7 years had passed, according to God's design & judgement, and then the king blessed the name of the true God.

there is no 'righteous works' in this story. there is belief in the heart and confession with the mouth.

God was teaching Nebuchadnezzar a lesson that God rules in all the kingdom's of men.

Nebuchadnezzar couldhave learned the lesson by taking Daniel's advice, Dan 4:27 "Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by righteousness, and thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poor; if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity."

Yet Nebuchadnezzar chose to learn the lesson the hard way "The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?" Dan 4:30

After 7 periods as an animal - "And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: ..Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase." Dan 4:34,37


Nebuchadnezzar, after being punished, took Daniel's advice and broke off his iniquities by righteousness and worshipped God.

ROm 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Rom 10:9 is part of the NT law and not OT law. Nebuchadnezzar did not live under Christ's NT gospel therefore not accountable to it. At the time of Nebuchadnezzar Christ did not live on the earth in the flesh and had not been crucified so Nebuchadnezzar could not confess Christ nor believe in his heart God raised Christ from the dead for Christ had not lived much less died at Nebuchadnezzar's time.

 

[dcontroversal]

Brother, I take the scriptures to mean that God ordained salvation by people coming to Him of the free will He has given to every human being. If you agree, we are on the same page. If you dont, we can agree to disagree.

How do you deal with Romans 3:10-11-18 and primarily verse 11...There is none that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God....?

VS. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the LAW (works) there shall be no flesh justified in HIS sight.....
VS. 21-22 But now the righteousness of God without the LAW is manifested, being witnessed by the LAW and the Prophets; EVEN the righteousness of GOD which is by FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST UNTO all and UPON ALL them that BELIEVE

The reason our works cannot save us is two fold...

1. Because of man's natural fallen sate as found in verses 10-18 and
2. It is based upon the FAITH OF JESUS UPON ALL that BELIEVE!

 

[SeaBass]

The healing took place when he did as God commanded, when he dipped. The salvation of his soul took place when he believed God.

Salvation took place before the healing of leprosy.

Again, the issue about Naaman is not about salvation. The issue is about grace and works.

Did God's grace require the work of dipping in order for Naaman to be healed?

By dipping did Naaman earn his healing therefore his healing was not of grace but earned?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes, Abraham was saved by an OBEDIENT faith..."By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Heb 11:8

By faith Abraham..obeyed.

Could Abraham DISOBEYED God and not go out and be saved? No. Would Abraham received the blessings of God if he had not obeyed? No.

Abraham "believed" God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. Abraham walked out on his faith and trust in God's promise . . . IOW, he had faith in God and therefore obeyed. . . . Not obeyed then had faith.

My issue about Naaman did not have to do with his salvation but was to show an example of grace and works, in how God's grace requires works but doing those works do not earn God's grace.

Naaman is an example that proves 1) God can attach conditions to His free gifts. and 2) working to meet those conditions can never earn the free gift.

When Naaman went a dipped in the river 7 times, did his work in dipping merit his own healing therefore grace had nothing to do with it?

Was Abraham earning his salvation when he obeyed God by working in leaving his home land and kindred? No.

Naaman had faith that he would be healed by following what Jesus told him to do because if he didn't have that faith he wouldn't have believed what Jesus told him and wouldn't have been dipped in the river 7 times. . . . He walked out in faith . . His faith led him to obedience.

 

[gb9]

Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom. today you will be with Me in paradise. what work did the thief do?? none.

 

[SeaBass]

The only two possible names I could use after reading what you wrote concerning the post is blind and or maybe borderline liar....as a very careful reading to the this post reveals the truth that you accused me of calling you a name and it is obvious that I did not call you a name so do you plan on repenting for wrongfully misrepresenting the truth which is lying!

So...what did that accusatory lie cost you concerning your salvation seeing how you believe you can loose it when you sin...that would be Deuteronomy 5:20 which would be commandment #7 and is also one of the 7 that God hates Proverbs 6...so good luck with not losing your salvation....and exactly which work will you do to get it back?

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Just because you bold something means nothing...How about this I can make things big as well...FAITH IS ALSO CALLED A SPIRITUAL GIFT...ONE OF THREE REMAINING 1ST CORINTHIANS 13

I suggest you pray and seek the Jesus of the bible instead of the pseudo Jesus of Alexander Campbell

Faith is only a gift in the sense God has allowed men to have faith and be saved. Faith is NOT a gift in the sense that man can only have faith if God gives it to him.

Rom 10:9 cf Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Upon hearing the word of God men develops faith/belief within his own heart.

If one can have faith only if God gives it to him then God is at fault and to be blamed for all those that are faithless.

Mt 8:26 "And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm."

If one can only have faith as a result of God giving it, then those disciples that had "little faith" was the fault of God for failing to give them sufficient faith and Jesus criticism should have been directed at God for failing to give them the sufficient faith they needed.

 

[Alligator]

complete nonsense. What you are really saying is we don't ever have to,obey any of God's commands. Why should we inconvenience ourselves, we're saved anyway no matter what we do or think.

That is such repugnant thinking.

A heart that knows and loves God cannot feel that way.

So, do you deny it?

 

[Elin]

The healing took place when he did as God commanded, when he dipped.
The salvation of his soul took place when he believed God.

Salvation took place before the healing of leprosy.

Again, the issue about Naaman is not about salvation.

Contrare. . .the record shows it was first presented as an example of conditions attached
to God's free gift of salvation.

Naaman is not an example of salvation, and cannot be applied to God's free gift of salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

I think that some of the words people mix up the most are grace, faith, works and salvation (saved). And actually all four words are used together in one passage which actually puts them in order.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by GRACE you have been SAVED, though FAITH-and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God - not by WORKS, so that no one can boast."

We MUST keep them in order and correct context. Only by moving those four words around can we get that our works save us. And notice what it says about works...not by works.

1) faith itself is a work, (Mk 2:1-5; 1 Thess 1:3) so "not of works" cannot exclude all works else it excludes the work of faith.

2) in Eph 2:10, in this very context Paul says "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

So if "not of works" excludes the works of verse 10 then Paul contradicts himself.

3) therefore "not of works" refers to works of merit and not obedient works as faith nor good works that Christians must do.

 

[elf3]

What is so hard to understand about Jesus paying the FULL price for us?

Did Jesus only pay a partial price? Or was Jesus blood not enough?

Tell me where in the Bible ANYTHING does it say "Jesus only paid part you need to pay the rest."

You are saying that Jesus work wasn't good enough so now we have to pay the rest.

 

[Elin]

complete nonsense. What you are really saying is we don't ever have to,obey any of God's commands.
Why should we inconvenience ourselves, we're saved anyway no matter what we do or think.

That is such repugnant thinking.

A heart that knows and loves God cannot feel that way.

So, do you deny it?

I emphatically deny that the born again either feel or reason that way.

 

[Alligator]

complete nonsense. What you are really saying is we don't ever have to,obey any of God's commands. Why should we inconvenience ourselves, we're saved anyway no matter what we do or think.

I emphatically deny that the born again either feel or reason that way.

Do you believe in OSAS ?

 

[dcontroversal]

Faith is only a gift in the sense God has allowed men to have faith and be saved. Faith is NOT a gift in the sense that man can only have faith if God gives it to him.

Rom 10:9 cf Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Upon hearing the word of God men develops faith/belief within his own heart.

If one can have faith only if God gives it to him then God is at fault and to be blamed for all those that are faithless.

Mt 8:26 "And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm."

If one can only have faith as a result of God giving it, then those disciples that had "little faith" was the fault of God for failing to give them sufficient faith and Jesus criticism should have been directed at God for failing to give them the sufficient faith they needed.

More confusion on your part sea perch.......As you fail to understand that saving faith is a free gift void of any attachments as the disciples in the boat were already saved and had been scripturally identified with Jesus dia the 1st act of obedience (immersion)

As long as you keep taking verses out of context that have nothing at all to do with biblical salvation you will continue to trust into a gospel of a different kind which has no power to save.....

Salvation by grace dia faith period.....quit confusing the faith of daily living with saving faith which is based upon Jesus, HIS FAITH and HIS COMPLETED work.......and I have yet to see you apologize to me for misrepresented the truth about about the post I made when you said I called you a name.....so how many hail Campbells have you done to earn your salvation back.......which according to your gospel equals not being saved!

You also fail to see...God has dealt to EVERY MAN a MEASURE of FAITH (the ability to believe) and trust into the PERFECT FAITH of CHRIST...so point 2 and blame directed at God is moot!

 

[Atwood]

Grace is a supremely important doctrine.

20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

It is probable that the purpose of creating man was that the Lord might exhibit His attribute of grace. Holy angels sinned, & were doomed to the Lake of Fire. There is no atonement for the sins of angels. God did not become an angel and die to pay for the sins of angels.

But right away when Adam sinned, we can see: the Lord seeking Him and clothing Adam with animal skins, implying the shedding of blood & picturing the believer in Christ putting on Christ, having Christ's righteousness. Grace, unmerited favor, even favor contrary to merit. The ultimate grace we see in God becoming a man and going to the cross to pay for our sins. The horror of it can be seen by the Lord's anticipation of it in the Garden where he sweat (as it were) great drops of blood.
Consider the untold, unsearchable agony as He cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me." The Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man.

Now all He demands of a man for a new birth & eternal life is that the man trust Him. Let Him be the Savior. Forsake the pride of claiming phony good works.

God; 9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, 10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

A shame on all the perverters of the gospel of grace:

I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel; 7 which is not another gospel: only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. 9 As we have said before, so say I now again, If any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.


among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory.


But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

 

[SeaBass]

how did Christ heal?

one man, he anointed with mud, and said "go and wash"

another man, he said "your faith has made you whole"

so one man, by faith, obeyed, and was made whole
but another man, only having faith, did no more than call out to the Lord, and was also made whole.

then faith is enough, but the Lord may require whatever the Lord desires of His servants.

On one occasion Christ raised a dead man. A dead man can do no works so Christ made His gift UNCONDITIONAL in raising that man.

Other times, as with the blind man, who was told to go and wash his eyes out in the pool Christ made His gift CONDITIONAL.

In neither of the two examples was Christ free gift earned.

The gift giver has the right and option to make his free gifts come with or without conditions.


And when it comes to gospel salvation, Christ has made that free gift of His CONDITIONAL.

No one will be saved UNCONDITIONALLY but must CONDITIONALLY:

1) believe, the unbeliever will be lost, Jn 8:24
2) repent, the impenitent will be lost, Lk 13:3,5
3) confess, the denier of Christ will be lost, Mt 10:32,33; Rom 10:9,10
4) baptized, those in their unremitted/unforgiven sins are lost, Acts 2:38, Mk 16:16.

And working to believe, repent, confess and submit to baptism do not earn salvation no more than the blind man working in going to wash in the pool earn him anything or Naaman going to dip in the river earned him anything.

Faith only advocates to not have the right to make demands on the Gift Giver that He must make His free gift UNCONDITIONAL.

 

[elf3]

There is something seriously wrong.. you take Jesus nail Him to the cross then say "not good enough"

How about you get your Bible and do some study. I'll suggest a couple words....grace, faith, salvation (saved) and works. Oh and one more word which is the biggest one...Sovereignty.

 

[Elin]

faith itself is a work, (Mk 2:1-5; 1 Thess 1:3)

Both these contexts show works as a result of faith, and not faith itself as a work.

Your methodology is pure blindness. . .jerking Scriptures out of context,

misinterpreting their plain meanings, all for the sake of supporting your contra-Biblical theology.

Amazing!

You cannot be taken seriously.

 

[Atwood]

Only the gospel of grace is truth. The rest is anathema.


The heresy continues.
There is but one way to be saved, by grace through faith.

Faith = trust the Lord Jesus
Repent = change from non-trust to trust
(change from faith in the idol of water if need be to trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior)
Confess = agree with God as to Who Jesus is (YHWH),

Sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved,
believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.

A shame on all the perverters of the gospel of grace:

I marvel that ye are so quickly removing from him that called you in the grace of Christ unto a different gospel;which is not another gospel: only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema. As we have said before, so say I now again, If any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.


among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— 4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by gracehave ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: 8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not of works, that no man should glory.


But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.