What did the Jew receive first?
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The Jews and Gentiles are not separated at all. Not any more. There is a reason that Paul says the "Jews first." That is not a separation. If there was, then Paul would have said the "Jews only." Sorry that you don't understand that concept. The Gentiles are grafted in. I have written that and that what this entire thread is all about. The Jews first, and also to the Gentile.
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Let's start over for the 6th time and see if we can come to agreement as Children of God should, but I suppose there will be more ranting to follow. Longsuffering activated. The switch has been turned on. LOL
Ephesians 4:1-3
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called ,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
I really want this to be a learning thread rather than an arguing thread, so whoever wants to argue rather than learn and share, please do not contribute. Then we will see how much good this Bible study forum can be.
So the question is "what did the Jew receive before the Gentiles i.e. Greeks?"
Ephesians 3:1-6
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the *dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Dispensation=3622. oikonomia oy-kon-om-ee'-ah from 3623; administration (of a household or estate); specially, a (religious) "economy":--dispensation, stewardship.
Revelation=602. apokalupsis ap-ok-al'-oop-sis from 601; disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
Mystery=3466. musterion moos-tay'-ree-on from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by *initiation into religious rites):--mystery.
*initiation as in start/begin=God's will from the beginning and introduced at the appropriate time sequence.
Paul is saying that He knows that the Gentiles are included into religious rites. Are those rites the same as what the Jew's received previously, or are they different? If so, are the Gentiles grafted into the same promise that God gave to Israel?
Romans 1:14-16
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Post 345
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
post 344
Ephesians 4:1-3
1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called ,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
I really want this to be a learning thread rather than an arguing thread, so whoever wants to argue rather than learn and share, please do not contribute. Then we will see how much good this Bible study forum can be.
So the question is "what did the Jew receive before the Gentiles i.e. Greeks?"
Ephesians 3:1-6
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the *dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby , when ye read , ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Dispensation=3622. oikonomia oy-kon-om-ee'-ah from 3623; administration (of a household or estate); specially, a (religious) "economy":--dispensation, stewardship.
Revelation=602. apokalupsis ap-ok-al'-oop-sis from 601; disclosure:--appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
Mystery=3466. musterion moos-tay'-ree-on from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by *initiation into religious rites):--mystery.
*initiation as in start/begin=God's will from the beginning and introduced at the appropriate time sequence.
Paul is saying that He knows that the Gentiles are included into religious rites. Are those rites the same as what the Jew's received previously, or are they different? If so, are the Gentiles grafted into the same promise that God gave to Israel?
Romans 1:14-16
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Post 345
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
post 344
You have not been hearing what I've been saying all along because discussion was constantly being interrupted by someone who called the meaning of being added to the religious rites of the Jews was pagan. The Gentiles have been added with the Jews. There is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile. Jesus came to save the world, not just the Jews.
acts 15:7-9
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up , and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe .
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness , giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
To the Jew first and also to the Gentile.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
acts 15:7-9
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up , and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe .
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness , giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
To the Jew first and also to the Gentile.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
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Nope. . .previously addressed. . .multiple times.
"Religious rites" is not the NT meaning of "mystery."
That is its pagan usage and meaning.
So to what "religious rite" is Paul referring to in these "mysteries"?
Which is it, "mystery" is "a religious rite," as the word was used by the pagans,
or "mystery" is what "in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed," as the word is used in the NT?
They aren't the same.
"Religious rites" is not the NT meaning of "mystery."
That is its pagan usage and meaning.
So to what "religious rite" is Paul referring to in these "mysteries"?
Which is it, "mystery" is "a religious rite," as the word was used by the pagans,
or "mystery" is what "in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed," as the word is used in the NT?
They aren't the same.
Why are you constantly denying that the Gentiles are added to the salvation with the Jews who beleive such as the 12 disciples. You are wrong in your analogy.
Acts 15:7-9
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up , and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe .
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness , giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Here is the remaining part of the post that you didn't quote
Acts 15:7-9
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up , and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe .
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness , giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Here is the remaining part of the post that you didn't quote
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You have me confused with someone else.
Nope. . .previously addressed. . .multiple times.
"Religious rites" is not the NT meaning of "mystery."
That is its pagan usage and meaning.
So to what "religious rite" is Paul referring to in these "mysteries"?
Which is it, "mystery" is "a religious rite," as the word was used by the pagans,
or "mystery" is what "in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed," as the word is used in the NT?
They aren't the same.
Nope. . .previously addressed. . .multiple times.
"Religious rites" is not the NT meaning of "mystery."
That is its pagan usage and meaning.
So to what "religious rite" is Paul referring to in these "mysteries"?
Which is it, "mystery" is "a religious rite," as the word was used by the pagans,
or "mystery" is what "in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed," as the word is used in the NT?
They aren't the same.
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Just-me, if what I'm about to ask does not fit the scope of what you want in this thread please let me know. I can make another in the MISC section.
I want to know what you think are the implications for Gentile Christians based on what you appear to be asserting.
You seem to be asserting that Gentiles are brought into Jewish religious rites.
What are the implications?
Does this imply Gentiles ought to/should/are directed to/commanded/told to/you get the main idea, observe both a physical weekly Sabbath on Saturday, and the spiritual Sabbath realized/found in Jesus?
Does this imply Gentiles ought to/should/are directed to/commanded/told to/you get the main idea, observe both the physical feasts, and the spiritual feasts realized/found in Jesus?
Does this imply Gentiles ought to/should/are directed to/commanded/told to/you get the main idea, observe both the physical festivals, and the spiritual festivals realized/found in Jesus?
I want to know what you think are the implications for Gentile Christians based on what you appear to be asserting.
You seem to be asserting that Gentiles are brought into Jewish religious rites.
What are the implications?
Does this imply Gentiles ought to/should/are directed to/commanded/told to/you get the main idea, observe both a physical weekly Sabbath on Saturday, and the spiritual Sabbath realized/found in Jesus?
Does this imply Gentiles ought to/should/are directed to/commanded/told to/you get the main idea, observe both the physical feasts, and the spiritual feasts realized/found in Jesus?
Does this imply Gentiles ought to/should/are directed to/commanded/told to/you get the main idea, observe both the physical festivals, and the spiritual festivals realized/found in Jesus?
1
Just-me, again, if what I'm about to ask doesn't fit the scope of this thread, let me know, and I can make another one in MISC.
Do you believe the Bible teaches that Gentile Christians who don't observe a physical weekly Sabbath, and the Sabbath spiritually realized in Jesus are being disobedient to God?
Do you believe the Bible teaches that Gentile Christians who don't observe a the physical feasts, and the feasts spiritually realized in Jesus are being disobedient to God?
Do you believe the Bible teaches that Gentile Christians who don't observe a the physical festivals, and the festivals spiritually realized in Jesus are being disobedient to God?
Do you believe the Bible teaches that Gentile Christians who don't observe a physical weekly Sabbath, and the Sabbath spiritually realized in Jesus are being disobedient to God?
Do you believe the Bible teaches that Gentile Christians who don't observe a the physical feasts, and the feasts spiritually realized in Jesus are being disobedient to God?
Do you believe the Bible teaches that Gentile Christians who don't observe a the physical festivals, and the festivals spiritually realized in Jesus are being disobedient to God?
The Strong's concordance gave the meaning of "religious rite." I didn't. Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results #3466
Elin says that is a pagan interpretation. I'm not focused on that, I am focused on what the Jews received first for conversation and edification. Concerning what Elin continues to bring up, from what I understand there are 2 religious rites concerning baptism and communion. That's not my focus. It has nothing to do with me endorsing keeping the Sabbath, physical feasts or festivals. I posted curse and blessings from Deuteronomy. These things apply to what I have been trying to introduce. Here are the links to the posts that have been neglected for the sake of who know what.
Post 344
post 345
Now, put them together with this scripture.
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (post 344)
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (post 345)
Now, you tell me why this has been consistently derailed for no good reason. I would also like to know what makes the Strong's Concordance definition pagan as mentioned several times before. I have also reported this several times.
Now, concerning religious rites, Elin mentioned the Abrahamic covenant which is a religous rite of sorts concerning circumcision. That is also not the point of this thread.
Elin says that is a pagan interpretation. I'm not focused on that, I am focused on what the Jews received first for conversation and edification. Concerning what Elin continues to bring up, from what I understand there are 2 religious rites concerning baptism and communion. That's not my focus. It has nothing to do with me endorsing keeping the Sabbath, physical feasts or festivals. I posted curse and blessings from Deuteronomy. These things apply to what I have been trying to introduce. Here are the links to the posts that have been neglected for the sake of who know what.
Post 344
post 345
Now, put them together with this scripture.
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; (post 344)
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (post 345)
Now, you tell me why this has been consistently derailed for no good reason. I would also like to know what makes the Strong's Concordance definition pagan as mentioned several times before. I have also reported this several times.
Now, concerning religious rites, Elin mentioned the Abrahamic covenant which is a religous rite of sorts concerning circumcision. That is also not the point of this thread.
1
I'm not too familiar with the truthfulness or falsity of Strongs in relation to this.
My questions were geared at trying to find the implications IF you are correct concerning this issue.
Let's assume you and Strong's are correct on religious rites and Gentiles, what are the implications?
That's where my volley of questions came in.
If you'd rather not answer those in this thread, please just reply back with some form of...
YO I DON'T WANNA ANSWER THOSE IN THIS THREAD!
If you're not, would you be willing to discuss this angle of the discussion in another thread if I create it?
My questions were geared at trying to find the implications IF you are correct concerning this issue.
Let's assume you and Strong's are correct on religious rites and Gentiles, what are the implications?
That's where my volley of questions came in.
If you'd rather not answer those in this thread, please just reply back with some form of...
YO I DON'T WANNA ANSWER THOSE IN THIS THREAD!
If you're not, would you be willing to discuss this angle of the discussion in another thread if I create it?
1
Now, you tell me why this has been consistently derailed for no good reason. I would also like to know what makes the Strong's Concordance definition pagan as mentioned several times before. I have also reported this several times.
I never said if it was or wasn't pagan. Frankly I don't know.
I was going to go on the assumption it wasn't, and then ask the implications of your assertion that Gentiles are brought into Jewish religious rites.
If you want to pursue that angle of the topic we can do it
There---> http://christianchat.com/miscellane...s-if-brought-into-jewish-religious-rites.html
As far as the Strongs=pagan..I have no idea.
1
Now, you tell me why this has been consistently derailed for no good reason. I have also reported this several times.
I think going back and forth on this issue of what is and isn't derailing would derail this thread.