What did the Jew receive first?
- Thread starter just-me
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Just-me also, if you had maybe put a request in this thread that you simply wanted to be the only one to give input on anything in this thread, then it's possible a mod could have tried to the best of their ability to tell others not to contribute, and just to let you post alone.
So outside of that, the issue of derailment is really touch and go, kinda subjective thing in a format where contributing thoughts, opinions, ideas etc is how things are done.
So outside of that, the issue of derailment is really touch and go, kinda subjective thing in a format where contributing thoughts, opinions, ideas etc is how things are done.
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Gentile inclusion into Jewish religious rites appeared to be within the scope of discussion of this thread.
Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/100311-what-did-jew-receive-first.html
So I posed questions in relation to that issue.
But I also tried showing consideration if you did not want to go in that direction.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hat-did-jew-receive-first-21.html#post1723040
Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/100311-what-did-jew-receive-first.html
So I posed questions in relation to that issue.
But I also tried showing consideration if you did not want to go in that direction.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hat-did-jew-receive-first-21.html#post1723040
The starting point of this thread is the name of the thread. Scripture to identify what the Jew received first according to Paul's epistles is what should have been discussed. After several derailments and misunderstandings, I tried to instigate and begin conversation with what is posted on 344 and 345. That's quite simple to me is it not to you? Just asking, so please don't take it the wrong way for I really want to know what you think about that.
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
I must be under a misconception that the Bible study forum is not for edification.
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
I must be under a misconception that the Bible study forum is not for edification.
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Again, a topic can have so many tangential aspects, that a question can spawn off.
Said question may be perceived by some as relevant, and by others as not relevant.
This forum is going to have people who contribute views opposite of yours.
I don't think we can view/label that as derailing, divisive, non-edifying, etc.
Sometimes in threads humor breaks out, fellowship breaks out, and the like. That's the nature of online forums. If it happens it doesn't mean we have derailing, division, non-edification.
Given the complexities and realities of this forum, you to some extent have to allow for that.
That doesn't mean the forums aren't for "edification", it just means there are certain complexities and realities than come with this forum.
We try our hardest to address certain levels of "non-edifying" things when they reach certain levels. But please understand we don't have the time to police this so it's a totally buttoned down, 100% serious, 100% level of no anger ever.
If you want to make a thread where the only one expressing a view is you, then indicate that, and we might be able to help. Otherwise, expect opposing opinions, maybe some humor, certain elevated levels of emotions.
We're trying our best, but we can't make everything just how you want it.
Said question may be perceived by some as relevant, and by others as not relevant.
This forum is going to have people who contribute views opposite of yours.
I don't think we can view/label that as derailing, divisive, non-edifying, etc.
Sometimes in threads humor breaks out, fellowship breaks out, and the like. That's the nature of online forums. If it happens it doesn't mean we have derailing, division, non-edification.
Given the complexities and realities of this forum, you to some extent have to allow for that.
That doesn't mean the forums aren't for "edification", it just means there are certain complexities and realities than come with this forum.
We try our hardest to address certain levels of "non-edifying" things when they reach certain levels. But please understand we don't have the time to police this so it's a totally buttoned down, 100% serious, 100% level of no anger ever.
If you want to make a thread where the only one expressing a view is you, then indicate that, and we might be able to help. Otherwise, expect opposing opinions, maybe some humor, certain elevated levels of emotions.
We're trying our best, but we can't make everything just how you want it.
By the way. Circumcision is a religious rite to the Jews via Abraham. Nevertheless the Law God gave to Moses speaks only of the circumcision of the heart. Elin endorsed this Covenant with Abraham.
See this site. Circumcision- Brit Milah | Jewish Virtual Library
See this site. Circumcision- Brit Milah | Jewish Virtual Library
Woman can be circumcised under the new covenant. Woman could also be circumcised spiritually under the law. That may not compute with all people but it's true.
Here's what God told Abraham
Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
This ritual was passed down from Abraham to Israel.
That was a religious rite to the Jews coming from Abraham. There is nothing in the law that says it began with Moses.
Here's what the Mosaic law says
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked .
Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Here's what Paul says
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
This is what the seed of Abraham is
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Now this has everything to do with this verse.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
The next thing would be to address these verses
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Here's what God told Abraham
Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
This ritual was passed down from Abraham to Israel.
That was a religious rite to the Jews coming from Abraham. There is nothing in the law that says it began with Moses.
Here's what the Mosaic law says
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked .
Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Here's what Paul says
Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
This is what the seed of Abraham is
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Now this has everything to do with this verse.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth ; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
The next thing would be to address these verses
Romans 2:9-10
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
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I never took you for one to comply with this law.
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
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It doesn't mean it's not part of the Mosaic law just because it didn't begin with Moses.
That fact that it's directed over and over in the actual law of Moses indicates it's part of the law too.
I agree heart circumcision is in the mosaic law, but so is physical circumcision. Clearly directed from God, over and over.
There are a lot of laws given before and after the verse below in Leviticus. I don't think you can exclude circumcision as being part of the law simply because it started with Abraham. God included it in his Mosaic law, thus it should be viewed as Mosaic, just like the stuff before and after it.
That fact that it's directed over and over in the actual law of Moses indicates it's part of the law too.
I agree heart circumcision is in the mosaic law, but so is physical circumcision. Clearly directed from God, over and over.
There are a lot of laws given before and after the verse below in Leviticus. I don't think you can exclude circumcision as being part of the law simply because it started with Abraham. God included it in his Mosaic law, thus it should be viewed as Mosaic, just like the stuff before and after it.
I think scripture is so clear that even your questions are way off base. It is a total misunderstanding of what God was doing when God took Abraham, a gentile man, and used him to teach the gentiles. Why man today should use questions like this the way they do is something unbelievable.
God divided a man out from gentiles to create a race called Hebrews. God gave them rituals. We are told about these rituals, and we are to learn them to see what those rituals were given to them for. We are to read the book of Isaiah to find out the misuse of them. We are told in scripture that we are to obey the spiritual meaning of them, but to use the Holy Spirit and not get all wound up in the rituals to obey the spirit of the rituals. People are still getting their heads all messed up over something like diet being just AWFUL. Paul mentioned depending on diet for the spirit of the Lord as being just AWFUL, but we aren't to get so carried away that we judge people by their diet like so many here are doing.
I also don't think this "is it disobeying" stuff is following scripture with understanding at all. It is as if most people are using it to shake a condemning finger at others. Can you condemn people if they don't walk exactly as scripture leads them to walk, you say. The answer is no. We individually learn to walk well by learning how God guides us, not with the idea we go to jail if we don't follow exactly, but as people looking for the best trail blazers on a wilderness trail. If we miss, we have Christ to forgive and then we get back on the trail again.
Keeping Saturday, and for some even keeping Sunday is made into a HUGE no no. If anyone dares to say that in ancient times it was Saturday that was specified and they would like to keep it, all hell breaks loose. It becomes denying that Christ is our rest, or all the stupid judgments. Then this sin business instead of trying to walk on a pleasing path gets brought out and bullies start throwing threats. Scripture speaks of this, but it is not allowed to be spoken of on CC. Before Christ the idol worshippers used Sunday, and after Christ it became more acceptable to use Sunday. Paul said using Sunday was OK with God, but on CC it has become a rule. Not the rule not to judge on the day, but the rule to use Sunday. Anyone saying they used Saturday for thousands of years and they think it shouldn't be changed is considered, again, someone to be judged. A few judge Sunday as wrong also, that is considered absolutely worse than the judgments of those who say that keeping a Sabbath is denying Christ as our rest. We should be able to discuss it, but it is a tempest in a teapot.
Paul had almost tantrums in scripture about people judging over rituals. I wonder how Paul and Christ would react to what would be said to them for the way they worshipped? There would be no upper room if CC had it's way.
God divided a man out from gentiles to create a race called Hebrews. God gave them rituals. We are told about these rituals, and we are to learn them to see what those rituals were given to them for. We are to read the book of Isaiah to find out the misuse of them. We are told in scripture that we are to obey the spiritual meaning of them, but to use the Holy Spirit and not get all wound up in the rituals to obey the spirit of the rituals. People are still getting their heads all messed up over something like diet being just AWFUL. Paul mentioned depending on diet for the spirit of the Lord as being just AWFUL, but we aren't to get so carried away that we judge people by their diet like so many here are doing.
I also don't think this "is it disobeying" stuff is following scripture with understanding at all. It is as if most people are using it to shake a condemning finger at others. Can you condemn people if they don't walk exactly as scripture leads them to walk, you say. The answer is no. We individually learn to walk well by learning how God guides us, not with the idea we go to jail if we don't follow exactly, but as people looking for the best trail blazers on a wilderness trail. If we miss, we have Christ to forgive and then we get back on the trail again.
Keeping Saturday, and for some even keeping Sunday is made into a HUGE no no. If anyone dares to say that in ancient times it was Saturday that was specified and they would like to keep it, all hell breaks loose. It becomes denying that Christ is our rest, or all the stupid judgments. Then this sin business instead of trying to walk on a pleasing path gets brought out and bullies start throwing threats. Scripture speaks of this, but it is not allowed to be spoken of on CC. Before Christ the idol worshippers used Sunday, and after Christ it became more acceptable to use Sunday. Paul said using Sunday was OK with God, but on CC it has become a rule. Not the rule not to judge on the day, but the rule to use Sunday. Anyone saying they used Saturday for thousands of years and they think it shouldn't be changed is considered, again, someone to be judged. A few judge Sunday as wrong also, that is considered absolutely worse than the judgments of those who say that keeping a Sabbath is denying Christ as our rest. We should be able to discuss it, but it is a tempest in a teapot.
Paul had almost tantrums in scripture about people judging over rituals. I wonder how Paul and Christ would react to what would be said to them for the way they worshipped? There would be no upper room if CC had it's way.
How do you take these verses then?
John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
There is nothing in the Mosaic law that instigates physical circumcision as a new ordinance via Moses.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
John 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
There is nothing in the Mosaic law that instigates physical circumcision as a new ordinance via Moses.
Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
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How can you profess Christ and not be circumcised? Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, NKJV
Are you so caught up in anything physical that you can't see spirit and truth?
Are you so caught up in anything physical that you can't see spirit and truth?
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I guess this is the part where I get confused.
Folks who have the same understanding as you, seem to put the onus on "spiritually observing" Sabbath/feasts/festivals.
You say it's not about the rituals.
Yet for some of the feasts/festivals/sabbaths, there are actual rituals given in the OT.
People like me come along, and we say..."You don't have to observe all these rituals with feasts and festivals!"
But when people like me say that, people like you seem to find offense,but then when pressed on the issue, you revert back to...NO NO NO it's all spiritual observing.
So if this is all truly just "spiritual observing", what in the world is everyone disagreeing on?
If you say we aren't being disobedient to God if we don't do the rituals described for the passover celebration, and if I say I see Jesus as my passover lamb spiritually.......Then uh.....umm...errrmmm....don't both sides agree?
You do believe Christians aren't walking in disobedience if they don't do the Passover rituals described in the OT?
Folks who have the same understanding as you, seem to put the onus on "spiritually observing" Sabbath/feasts/festivals.
You say it's not about the rituals.
Yet for some of the feasts/festivals/sabbaths, there are actual rituals given in the OT.
People like me come along, and we say..."You don't have to observe all these rituals with feasts and festivals!"
But when people like me say that, people like you seem to find offense,but then when pressed on the issue, you revert back to...NO NO NO it's all spiritual observing.
So if this is all truly just "spiritual observing", what in the world is everyone disagreeing on?
If you say we aren't being disobedient to God if we don't do the rituals described for the passover celebration, and if I say I see Jesus as my passover lamb spiritually.......Then uh.....umm...errrmmm....don't both sides agree?
You do believe Christians aren't walking in disobedience if they don't do the Passover rituals described in the OT?
The reason and purpose of the physical rituals given as a way of everyday reminders of the spiritual was not to take the place of what they were to lead to. That was addressed very well in the book of Isaiah way before Christ came to clear away the division between Jew and gentile that those rituals stood for.
By the church keeping up the importance of the physical of the rituals, ignoring the spiritual that the Holy Spirit we are now given to lead us in spirit and truth, we are doing the same thing Paul spoke so against just in the opposite way. We are still thinking and judging by rituals and not by truth.
By the church keeping up the importance of the physical of the rituals, ignoring the spiritual that the Holy Spirit we are now given to lead us in spirit and truth, we are doing the same thing Paul spoke so against just in the opposite way. We are still thinking and judging by rituals and not by truth.