What did the Jew receive first?

[1still_waters]

The reason and purpose of the physical rituals given as a way of everyday reminders of the spiritual was not to take the place of what they were to lead to. That was addressed very well in the book of Isaiah way before Christ came to clear away the division between Jew and gentile that those rituals stood for.

By the church keeping up the importance of the physical of the rituals, ignoring the spiritual that the Holy Spirit we are now given to lead us in spirit and truth, we are doing the same thing Paul spoke so against just in the opposite way. We are still thinking and judging by rituals and not by truth.

But since it's all spiritual, and not ritual, Christians aren't walking in disobedience if they don't do the ritual?

 

[Elin]

Not this woman!

When pigs fly and hell freezes over!

Keepa' you hands offa' my body!

How can you profess Christ and not be circumcised?

The sign of the Abrahamic covenant is the topic.

Confessing Christ has nothing to do with OT circumcision.

And neither do I!

 

[just-me]

I guess this is the part where I get confused.

Folks who have the same understanding as you, seem to put the onus on "spiritually observing" Sabbath/feasts/festivals.
You say it's not about the rituals.

Yet for some of the feasts/festivals/sabbaths, there are actual rituals given in the OT.

People like me come along, and we say..."You don't have to observe all these rituals with feasts and festivals!"

But when people like me say that, people like you seem to find offense,but then when pressed on the issue, you revert back to...NO NO NO it's all spiritual observing.

So if this is all truly just "spiritual observing", what in the world is everyone disagreeing on?

If you say we aren't being disobedient to God if we don't do the rituals described for the passover celebration, and if I say I see Jesus as my passover lamb spiritually.......Then uh.....umm...errrmmm....don't both sides agree?

You do believe Christians aren't walking in disobedience if they don't do the Passover rituals described in the OT?

I for one, (and I also believe Redtent is) am a person that sees the law as spiritual only. Where the problem comes in is that our accusers are thinking that we can only see the physical as they do. That's so untrue.

Romans 8:5-7
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[1still_waters]

We are to read the book of Isaiah to find out the misuse of them. We are told in scripture that we are to obey the spiritual meaning of them, but to use the Holy Spirit and not get all wound up in the rituals to obey the spirit of the rituals. .

You've clearly established this isn't about rituals, it's about spiritual.

If a Christian sees, believes, understands, that Jesus is his rest/Sabbath, then since none of this is ritual, and it's all spiritual, there is no need to do any type of physical ritual whatsoever to observe Sabbath?

If a Christian sees, believes, understands, that Jesus is his Passover Lamb, then since none of this is ritual, and it's all spiritual, there is no need to do any type of physical ritual whatsoever to observe Passover?

If a Christian sees, believes, understands, that Jesus is his first fruit of salvation, then since none of this is ritual, and it's all spiritual, there is no need to do any type of physical ritual whatsoever to observe the first fruits aspect of the OT?

If a Christian sees, believes, understands, that Jesus is his atonement, then since none of this is ritual, and it's all spiritual, there is no need to do any type of physical ritual whatsoever to observe the day of atonement?

..and so on and so forth...

Your answer to these will show if you really think this is all about spiritual, and nothing to do with ritual.

 

[BradC]

I think scripture is so clear that even your questions are way off base. It is a total misunderstanding of what God was doing when God took Abraham, a gentile man, and used him to teach the gentiles. Why man today should use questions like this the way they do is something unbelievable.

God divided a man out from gentiles to create a race called Hebrews. God gave them rituals. We are told about these rituals, and we are to learn them to see what those rituals were given to them for. We are to read the book of Isaiah to find out the misuse of them. We are told in scripture that we are to obey the spiritual meaning of them, but to use the Holy Spirit and not get all wound up in the rituals to obey the spirit of the rituals. People are still getting their heads all messed up over something like diet being just AWFUL. Paul mentioned depending on diet for the spirit of the Lord as being just AWFUL, but we aren't to get so carried away that we judge people by their diet like so many here are doing.

I also don't think this "is it disobeying" stuff is following scripture with understanding at all. It is as if most people are using it to shake a condemning finger at others. Can you condemn people if they don't walk exactly as scripture leads them to walk, you say. The answer is no. We individually learn to walk well by learning how God guides us, not with the idea we go to jail if we don't follow exactly, but as people looking for the best trail blazers on a wilderness trail. If we miss, we have Christ to forgive and then we get back on the trail again.

Keeping Saturday, and for some even keeping Sunday is made into a HUGE no no. If anyone dares to say that in ancient times it was Saturday that was specified and they would like to keep it, all hell breaks loose. It becomes denying that Christ is our rest, or all the stupid judgments. Then this sin business instead of trying to walk on a pleasing path gets brought out and bullies start throwing threats. Scripture speaks of this, but it is not allowed to be spoken of on CC. Before Christ the idol worshippers used Sunday, and after Christ it became more acceptable to use Sunday. Paul said using Sunday was OK with God, but on CC it has become a rule. Not the rule not to judge on the day, but the rule to use Sunday. Anyone saying they used Saturday for thousands of years and they think it shouldn't be changed is considered, again, someone to be judged. A few judge Sunday as wrong also, that is considered absolutely worse than the judgments of those who say that keeping a Sabbath is denying Christ as our rest. We should be able to discuss it, but it is a tempest in a teapot.

Paul had almost tantrums in scripture about people judging over rituals. I wonder how Paul and Christ would react to what would be said to them for the way they worshipped? There would be no upper room if CC had it's way.

That is why it is best to leave those days aside and worship God in Spirit and truth and assembly ourselves together more and more as we see the day approaching. That resolves the conflict 100% and allows the love of God to be shed abroad in the heart to one another without a specified day of worship. Redeeming the time is what we are called to do and that does not involve any special day set aside for that practice. I personally believe that what brings the greatest pleasure and joy to the heart of God is to see that we walk in the light of what we have been taught and when the trials and pressures of life are pressing on every side, God takes pleasure as we respond by faith to His promises and cleave to His grace by faith in the midst of our greatest adversity. The trial of our faith is more precious than refined gold that perishes (1 Pt 1:7).

 

[just-me]

But since it's all spiritual, and not ritual, Christians aren't walking in disobedience if they don't do the ritual?

Observance of the ritual isn't doing them just to gain some sort of righteousness. Here is an example of observation. We read in scripture that the feast of unleavened bread was to remember our fast escape from the slavery of sin represented by Egypt. Three days after Passover Israel crossed the Red Sea. Passover is the same day Christ was buried in the first month called Nisan.

Israel crossed the Red Sea the same day Christ rose from the dead. After 7 days Israel finds water but it isn't fit to drink. Moses is told by God to cut a tree down and throw it in the water, and then the water became fit to drink. This was the last day of the feast of unleavened bread. Jesus is our living water and He is a our Savior from the slavery of sin. Put it together. Do I kill sheep and spread the blood on my house? Heavens no!

I like to observe these things in understanding the dynamics of God and His foreknowledge of all things. It builds a greater insight for me as I understand a more detailed explanation of salvation in Christ Jesus and all He has done for His own.

 

[1still_waters]

If observing feasts, festivals, and Sabbaths simply means things like...

I understand, see, believe, etc. that Jesus is my tabernacle and eternal home.

I understand, see, believe, etc. that Jesus is my atonement.

I understand, see, believe, etc. that Jesus is my trumpet victory rest.

I understand, see, believe, etc. that Jesus is the first fruits of my salvation.

I understand, see, believe, etc. that Jesus is my Passover lamb.

I understand, see, believe, etc. that Jesus is my bread.

I understand, see, believe, etc. that Jesus is my Sabbath rest......

...and if none of this has nothing to do with any physical acts/rituals whatsoever.......Then isn't the list above enough for observing feasts, festivals, sabbaths? If you answer no, then you're saying there is a physical ritual aspect to it.

Sooo...which is it?

 

[1still_waters]

Observance of the ritual isn't doing them just to gain some sort of righteousness. Here is an example of observation. We read in scripture that the feast of unleavened bread was to remember our fast escape from the slavery of sin represented by Egypt. Three days after Passover Israel crossed the Red Sea. Passover is the same day Christ was buried in the first month called Nisan.

Israel crossed the Red Sea the same day Christ rose from the dead. After 7 days Israel finds water but it isn't fit to drink. Moses is told by God to cut a tree down and throw it in the water, and then the water became fit to drink. This was the last day of the feast of unleavened bread. Jesus is our living water and He is a our Savior from the slavery of sin. Put it together. Do I kill sheep and spread the blood on my house? Heavens no!

Sooo Christians need to do the ritual along with the spiritual understanding?

 

[RedTent]

But since it's all spiritual, and not ritual, Christians aren't walking in disobedience if they don't do the ritual?

Focusing on the ritual never was a way to obedience. The answer is no. But the next step is finding out what is ritual only and what is spiritual. I don't think that you can be truly baptized if you refuse the ritual, even though the ritual is not the baptizing God is looking at. I think it is rare that a marriage can be a Godly marriage even though the secular ceremony is only the ritual of the Godly one. Sometimes refusing a ritual can be a symptom of the true refusal.

I think Christians need to know the background of the rituals, and all of what Christ completed in order to truly understand Christ. Three year olds don't have all this, they often know Christ well. Try explaining a ritual to a three year old!! We are to become like little children. But often adults get swung off into wrong paths by what they learn when it doesn't come from growing in the Lord through the word.

I would bet you either are or could work as a lawyer, I follow your posts. Truths of the spirit are difficult to fit into a mind disciplined in the way a lawyer's mind must be. I think you would truly benefit by putting your disciplined mind to a step by step progression of scripture from Genesis to the gospels, if every step of the way you tied it in with how Christ completed each step.

 

[1still_waters]

Focusing on the ritual never was a way to obedience.

But are believers walking in disobedience if they don't do any of the physical ritual to any extent.
Yes I get the point, we are not to FOCUS on the ritual, but that doesn't mean you're saying we don't have to do a ritual to some extent.

 

[just-me]

Sooo Christians need to do the ritual along with the spiritual understanding?

Observation of a contractor building something doesn't mean I need to be part of the crew even though I'm learning by watching. I can observe the progress of construction. When we go to school we observe things that are established like algebra and geometry or even history which is more appropriate in this case. That doesn't mean we need to be the geniuses that figure out the formula over and over again. We observe the facts about whatever we are studying. A Christian loves to share what we have found as truth in the Bible. Being labeled and judged before the facts are explained of what we understand about the law, in a Spiritual sense, is a bad thing in my estimation.

 

[1still_waters]

Ok let's try this.
When you talk about observing the OT rituals to understand their spiritual meaning, do you mean..

1. I just read the stories and understand mentally the concept of the rituals.
2. I read the stories, understand the concept of the rituals, and I also do them physically.

One or two?

 

[RedTent]

Sooo Christians need to do the ritual along with the spiritual understanding?

You are focusing on a black and white conclusion only. Your mind is stuck on the right and wrong of ritual and it has to fit in one or the other in your mind. That is not what this post is all about, so you are not reading or seeing the post.

For you, you want to eliminate ritual if it doesn't work. So wipe them out of your mind, you will still be fine. Scripture says it is much better to just throw out the entire idea of rituals than to use them instead of the Holy Spirit, which is a true no no. A different mind set could read this post and explore the ritual you are discarding for what value it could have for you. For you, that exploration doesn't work, so don't fight it. You are fine by just tossing the entire ritual idea aside. Just know not to condemn Christians who do look at rituals, to do that is not a good idea. You will still be saved by Christ when you toss all thinking about rituals, but it makes it sort of iffy to do the condemning of others, according to Matt. 6.

 

[1still_waters]

Observation of a contractor building something doesn't mean I need to be part of the crew even though I'm learning by watching. I can observe the progress of construction. When we go to school we observe things that are established like algebra and geometry or even history which is more appropriate in this case. That doesn't mean we need to be the geniuses that figure out the formula over and over again. We observe the facts about whatever we are studying. A Christian loves to share what we have found as truth in the Bible. Being labeled and judged before the facts are explained of what we understand about the law, in a Spiritual sense, is a bad thing in my estimation.

Ok..so when you say Christians need to observe Sabbaths, feasts, festivals...All you seem to be saying is..

"Hey folks, study the rituals in the OT, understand their spiritual significance, then see their realization in Jesus. There is no need to physically act out any of the rituals."

Is that a proper understanding of what you mean by observing Sabbaths, feasts, festivals?

 

[1still_waters]

You are focusing on a black and white conclusion only. Your mind is stuck on the right and wrong of ritual and it has to fit in one or the other in your mind. That is not what this post is all about, so you are not reading or seeing the post.

For you, you want to eliminate ritual if it doesn't work. So wipe them out of your mind, you will still be fine. Scripture says it is much better to just throw out the entire idea of rituals than to use them instead of the Holy Spirit, which is a true no no. A different mind set could read this post and explore the ritual you are discarding for what value it could have for you. For you, that exploration doesn't work, so don't fight it. You are fine by just tossing the entire ritual idea aside. Just know not to condemn Christians who do look at rituals, to do that is not a good idea. You will still be saved by Christ when you toss all thinking about rituals, but it makes it sort of iffy to do the condemning of others, according to Matt. 6.

Ok so you're saying...

"Hey you need to really read and understand the rituals of the feasts, festivals, and Sabbaths, so you can get their spiritual meaning. But by no means do you actually have to physically practice any of the rituals."

Is that a proper understanding of what you're saying?

 

[just-me]

But are believers walking in disobedience if they don't do any of the physical ritual to any extent.
Yes I get the point, we are not to FOCUS on the ritual, but that doesn't mean you're saying we don't have to do a ritual to some extent.

Paul said this to the Gentiles of Galatia. If we are to lead others to Christ why not used this God given tool and learn it? Some here, and maybe you, think this is the wrong way.
Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come , we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

John 5:46-47
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[1still_waters]

Paul said this to the Gentiles of Galatia. If we are to lead others to Christ why not used this God given tool and learn it? Some here, and maybe you, think this is the wrong way.
Galatians 3:24-25
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come , we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

John 5:46-47
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Sooo we SHOULD do the rituals to some extent?

 

[1still_waters]

Ok..so when you say Christians need to observe Sabbaths, feasts, festivals...All you seem to be saying is..

"Hey folks, study the rituals in the OT, understand their spiritual significance, then see their realization in Jesus. There is no need to physically act out any of the rituals."

Is that a proper understanding of what you mean by observing Sabbaths, feasts, festivals?

I honestly don't know anyone in my camp who'd disagree with that if that's all you're saying....
Because all that is saying is....Read all your bible and understand it.

 

[Elin]

I honestly don't know anyone in my camp who'd disagree with that if that's all you're saying....
Because all that is saying is....Read all your bible and understand it.

Got that Jello nailed on the wall yet?

 

[just-me]

Ok..so when you say Christians need to observe Sabbaths, feasts, festivals...All you seem to be saying is..

"Hey folks, study the rituals in the OT, understand their spiritual significance, then see their realization in Jesus. There is no need to physically act out any of the rituals."

Is that a proper understanding of what you mean by observing Sabbaths, feasts, festivals?

Finally you got it!!!!!
I have been judged and called names and whatnot for my observation of these things. I have been told I'm wrong before I begin to explain what I believe. I question why? I am lashed out against before I can converse decently with some edification. What is it that causes people to do this? Why doesn't the administration take this into consideration? It's a shame to say the least. There are many people that have quit and many guests who would have joined but haven't because they see this all the time. Contention. Those such as myself do not start conflict. I hope the administration can change their outlook on these things, and maybe you can help others that rail against us to understand. This site could be dynamic, but it's slowly being ruined bit by bit. May God bless you with Spiritual understanding.