Trinity?

[VCO]

Quoting from other scriptures cannot be accepted. You use scriptures from your spinning bible that suites you and your theories whilst you politely ignore the Word of God which God has given to the whole world, and I will stick to it. Does your spinning bible teach you the truth about the Sabbath, Baptism, Salvation Plan. What does your spinning bible teach you about the Sunday teaching? Let us see if it correlates with the KJV. Why do I call your bible the spinning bible you may ask, because you have many variations, which you spin until the ball falls in the hole that you want to dish up as the truth. It is the same method Satan has used to try and trick Jesus Christ. Sorry, my eyes are wide open.

I follow the Berean's example, quoted in this verse:

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

NEVER have we taught that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. Sabbath is Saturday and ALWAYS WILL BE. We do not worship on Sunday to KEEP the Sabbath. Christ is the fulfillment of the Festival of First Fruits, which every year is ALWAYS celebrated on the "Morrow after the Sabbath".

Leviticus 23:7-21 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But you shall present a food offering to the LORD for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.”
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb a year old without blemish as a burnt offering to the LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the grain offering with it shall be two tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, a food offering to the LORD with a pleasing aroma, and the drink offering with it shall be of wine, a fourth of a hin.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And you shall eat neither bread nor grain parched or fresh until this same day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] You shall bring from your dwelling places two loaves of bread to be waved, made of two tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour, and they shall be baked with leaven, as firstfruits to the LORD.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And you shall present with the bread seven lambs a year old without blemish, and one bull from the herd and two rams. They shall be a burnt offering to the LORD, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, a food offering with a pleasing aroma to the LORD.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And you shall offer one male goat for a sin offering, and two male lambs a year old as a sacrifice of peace offerings.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And you shall make a proclamation on the same day. You shall hold a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a statute forever in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.
Christ is the first fruits of many resurrections to come, therefore we Worship on Sunday to Celebrate the Ressurection of our LORD.

The commandment to Keep the Sabbath ALWAYS has be a sign of the Covenant between GOD and ISRAEL, not the New Covenant between GOD and the Church.

Exodus 31:16-17 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

HOW DID HE JUSTIFY CHANGING THE LAW?

Hebrews 7:11-28 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest
[SUP]16 [/SUP] who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For He testifies: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
[SUP]21 [/SUP] (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The LORD has sworn And will not relent, 'You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek' "),
[SUP]22 [/SUP] by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
AND WHAT WAS THAT CHANGE IN THE WORSHIP LAW?

Hebrews 10:24-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, {NO MENTION OF A SPECIFIC DAY.} as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Romans 14:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.
Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

 

[ELECT]

NEVER have we taught that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. Sabbath is Saturday and ALWAYS WILL BE. We do not worship on Sunday to KEEP the Sabbath. Christ is the fulfillment of the Festival of First Fruits, which every year is ALWAYS celebrated on the "Morrow after the Sabbath".

Leviticus 23:7-21 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But you shall present a food offering to the LORD for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work.”
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] and he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb a year old without blemish as a burnt offering to the LORD.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And the grain offering with it shall be two tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, a food offering to the LORD with a pleasing aroma, and the drink offering with it shall be of wine, a fourth of a hin.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And you shall eat neither bread nor grain parched or fresh until this same day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering of new grain to the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] You shall bring from your dwelling places two loaves of bread to be waved, made of two tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour, and they shall be baked with leaven, as firstfruits to the LORD.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And you shall present with the bread seven lambs a year old without blemish, and one bull from the herd and two rams. They shall be a burnt offering to the LORD, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, a food offering with a pleasing aroma to the LORD.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And you shall offer one male goat for a sin offering, and two male lambs a year old as a sacrifice of peace offerings.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the LORD for the priest.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And you shall make a proclamation on the same day. You shall hold a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a statute forever in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.
Christ is the first fruits of many resurrections to come, therefore we Worship on Sunday to Celebrate the Ressurection of our LORD.

The commandment to Keep the Sabbath ALWAYS has be a sign of the Covenant between GOD and ISRAEL, not the New Covenant between GOD and the Church.

Exodus 31:16-17 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

HOW DID HE JUSTIFY CHANGING THE LAW?

Hebrews 7:11-28 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest
[SUP]16 [/SUP] who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For He testifies: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
[SUP]21 [/SUP] (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "The LORD has sworn And will not relent, 'You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek' "),
[SUP]22 [/SUP] by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
AND WHAT WAS THAT CHANGE IN THE WORSHIP LAW?

Hebrews 10:24-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, {NO MENTION OF A SPECIFIC DAY.} as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Romans 14:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike.
Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

do you believe a day stars in the eveinig at sunset ?

 

[Bowman]

Re: Study up...

No, that is ERROR in understanding, because you FAIL to understand that Jesus is BOTH Human and God in the Flesh. YES His FLESH had to travel to Heaven to be in the presence, of the Father. NO, His Spirit did not have to travel to be in the Presence of the Father.

He did here...

And crying again with a loud voice, Jesus released His spirit. (Mat 27.50)

 

[Bowman]

Re: Study up...

But you left out verse 7.

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him,
and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

And...?

That does NOT change anything!

The Son is still not The Father no matter how you slice it, brother...

Study your Greek.

What do either you guys see in Isaiah 9:6?

Read the Hebrew!

It says His NAME is the everlasting Father...NOT that he IS The Everlasting Father.

Don't you yet know what the Trinity is, brother?

Each person of the Trinity has the SAME name!

And I think I may have asked earlier - what do you see in Rev 21:1-7?

That is Jesus speaking.

And one more - What is the son's name in the O.T. - when it's not in the future tense?

God The Father was known as:


· Yahweh
· Elohim ‘God’
· El Elyon ‘God Most High’ (Gen 14.18, 19, 20, 22)
· El Olam ‘God Eternal’ (Gen 21.33
· Adonai Yahweh ‘Lord Yahweh’ (Gen 15.2, 8)




God The Son was known as:


· El Shaddai ‘God of Mighty Ones’ (Gen 17.1, 28.3, 35.11, 43.14, 48.3, 49.25; Exo 6.3)
· Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 16.13, 22.12, 31.13; Exo 3.6)
· The Malek Elohim ‘The Messenger of God’ (Gen 21.17; 31.11)
· The Malek Yahweh ‘ The Messenger of Yahweh’ (Gen 16.7, 9 - 11; 22.11, 15)
· Debar Yahweh ‘The Word of Yahweh’ (Gen 15.1, 4; Exo 9.20, 21)




God The Spirit was known as:


· The Ruach of Elohim ‘Spirit of God’ (Gen 1.2)
· The Ruach of Yahweh ‘Spirit of Yahweh’ (Gen 6.3)

I still think we're created in the image of God, being tripartite as He is.

Scripture disagrees with you.

Animals aren't.

Agreed.

 

[VCO]

Re: Study up...

He did here...

And crying again with a loud voice, Jesus released His spirit. (Mat 27.50)

That is because the Father had to step back from the presence of all the Sin that He had placed on Jesus to pay for the sins of the world.

 

[VCO]

do you believe a day starts in the evening at sunset ?

According to the Jewish Calendar, it certainly did.

Do I live my life that way?

I did when I worked the graveyard shift in the Post Office.

BUT HEY, I am retired now, and I live my life like the Day begins after 9:00 AM, when I finally get out of bed and get my first cup of coffee down. What time do I go to bed? Usually between 1:00 - 2:00 AM. Last night is was 1:21 AM when I shut this Laptop off and turned the light off.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Study up...

That is because the Father had to step back from the presence of all the Sin that He had placed on Jesus to pay for the sins of the world.

Where exactly is that found in scripture?

 

[VCO]

Re: Study up...

Where exactly is that found in scripture?

1 John 1:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

1 Peter 2:24-25 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Hence the Father had to step out the moment that sin was put in His body:

Matthew 27:46 (NIV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

 

[ChristIsGod]

And...?

That does NOT change anything!

The Son is still not The Father no matter how you slice it, brother...

Study your Greek.

Is that what you see in Rev 21:7?

Read the Hebrew!

6 (9:5) כיH3588 ילדH3206 ילדH3205 לנו בןH1121 נתןH5414 לנו ותהיH1961 המשׂרהH4951 עלH5921 שׁכמוH7926 ויקראH7121 שׁמוH8034 פלאH6382 יועץH3289 אלH410 גבורH1368 אביעדH5703 שׂרH8269 שׁלום׃H7965

It says His NAME is the everlasting Father...NOT that he IS The Everlasting Father.

6 (9:5) כיH3588 ילדH3206 ילדH3205 לנו בןH1121 נתןH5414 לנו ותהיH1961 המשׂרהH4951 עלH5921 שׁכמוH7926 ויקראH7121 שׁמוH8034 פלאH6382 יועץH3289 אלH410 גבורH1368 אביעדH5703 שׂרH8269 שׁלום׃H7965

What does it say?

Don't you yet know what the Trinity is, brother?

I know Him by His Words and not the words of a commentary nor early church 'father'.

Each person of the Trinity has the SAME name!

Agreed!

That is Jesus speaking.

I see Elohim as speaking in Rev 21:1-7 and see what OT prophesies are being fulfilled in His Words from those 7 verses.

God The Father was known as:

· Yahweh
· Elohim ‘God’
· El Elyon ‘God Most High’ (Gen 14.18, 19, 20, 22)
· El Olam ‘God Eternal’ (Gen 21.33
· Adonai Yahweh ‘Lord Yahweh’ (Gen 15.2, 8)


God The Son was known as:


· El Shaddai ‘God of Mighty Ones’ (Gen 17.1, 28.3, 35.11, 43.14, 48.3, 49.25; Exo 6.3)
· Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 16.13, 22.12, 31.13; Exo 3.6)
· The Malek Elohim ‘The Messenger of God’ (Gen 21.17; 31.11)
· The Malek Yahweh ‘ The Messenger of Yahweh’ (Gen 16.7, 9 - 11; 22.11, 15)
· Debar Yahweh ‘The Word of Yahweh’ (Gen 15.1, 4; Exo 9.20, 21)


God The Spirit was known as:


· The Ruach of Elohim ‘Spirit of God’ (Gen 1.2)
· The Ruach of Yahweh ‘Spirit of Yahweh’ (Gen 6.3)

This seems to contradict the quote above.... "Each person of the Trinity has the SAME name!"

Scripture disagrees with you.

Could you give some Scriptures that say that we're not created in the image of God?

Agreed.

Jude calls some "brute beasts" though :o) [jk]

 

[ChristIsGod]

Sorry - had trouble with the codes and tried several times to correct but it wouldn't correct.

 

[Bowman]

Re: Study up...

1 John 1:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

1 Peter 2:24-25 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Hence the Father had to step out the moment that sin was put in His body:

Matthew 27:46 (NIV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

No mention that The Father was with The Son...and then abandoned Him...

Come on...

 

[Bowman]

This seems to contradict the quote above.... "Each person of the Trinity has the SAME name!"

Each has the name Yahweh.

Could you give some Scriptures that say that we're not created in the image of God?

Observe that Genesis chapter 5 makes it clear that only Adam & Eve where created to be like God.

Starting in Genesis chapter 5, we have the same exact ‘image’ & ‘likeness’ terms applied to Adam’s offspring – in which only the Males are listed.

Each of Adam’s sons were begotten in Adam’s ‘image’ & ‘likeness’…not Gods ‘image & ‘likeness’.

And so we have a key element as to why the males are listed as begotten offspring as this clearly indicates that the fallen nature of humanity is carried through the males....this also makes it clear as to why Jesus needed to be born without an earthly father...

 

[ChristIsGod]

Each has the name Yahweh.


Observe that Genesis chapter 5 makes it clear that only Adam & Eve where created to be like God.

Starting in Genesis chapter 5, we have the same exact ‘image’ & ‘likeness’ terms applied to Adam’s offspring – in which only the Males are listed.

Each of Adam’s sons were begotten in Adam’s ‘image’ & ‘likeness’…not Gods ‘image & ‘likeness’.

And so we have a key element as to why the males are listed as begotten offspring as this clearly indicates that the fallen nature of humanity is carried through the males....this also makes it clear as to why Jesus needed to be born without an earthly father...[/FONT]

That's a different take that I haven't heard - about or against being created in His image.
Not debating, friend - just have never HOID of such a thing.



I don't feel it's necessary to debate my belief that The One True GOD shares every Name from Genesis - Rev, which are many but still Him. The Triune Nature of The Godhead make them One and so I see His Name applied to both the post-incarnational son, 'Jesus' [The Word of GOD from eternity past till eternity future] and GOD. As in Elohim and every other Name for GOD and don't divide the Spirit of God and of Christ from 'Him'.

There's a number of Scriptures both in the NT, plus a lot of the OT, that brought me to my conclusion - but of course you are free to have yours. Again - not debating - just exchanging thoughts.


These are just a very few of those passages that made me search all the more for Who HE is ...

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

and again -

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


Rev 19:12,13 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and He had a Name written, that no man knew, but He Himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: 'and' his name is called The Word of God.



In GOD our Savior,

Thank you for your reply!

 

[VCO]

Re: Study up...

No mention that The Father was with The Son...and then abandoned Him...

Come on...

From the verses that I posted, my conclusions are not only logical, but also very Biblical. The last time I checked, GOD never gave us a complete RECORD of everything He ever did, but rather, only the highlights HE deemed necessary for us to KNOW.

John 21:25 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they *were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

AND THAT IS NOT EVEN COUNTING THE DEEDS OF THE FATHER AND THE DEEDS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT ARE NOT RECORDED.

By LOGIC and THE WRITTEN WORD:

How much darkness does God have in HIM at any TIME? ZERO!

1 John 1:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Was GOD IN JESUS? YES!

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

IS DARKNESS equal to SIN? YES!

Proverbs 2:13-15 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Who forsake the paths of uprightness, To walk in the ways of darkness;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Who rejoice to do evil, And delight in the perverseness of evil;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Who are crooked in their ways, And wayward in their paths:

WAS SIN ever placed in the body of JESUS? YES!

1 Peter 2:24-25 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP]He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Does GOD ever Change? NO!

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I am the LORD, I do not change;
Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

CAN OUR ETERNAL GOD WHO IS SPIRIT EVER DIE?
NO, THAT IS WHY HE CREATED THE BODY OF JESUS TO INDWELL.

Deuteronomy 33:27 (NKJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] The eternal God is your refuge, And underneath are the everlasting arms; He will thrust out the enemy from before you, And will say, 'Destroy!'

COULD THE HUMAN PART OF JESUS DIE? YES!

1 Corinthians 15:3 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

WHICH PART OF JESUS DIED, THE HUMAN PART, OR THE SPIRIT PART, OR BOTH? The HUMAN PART.

1 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Acts 2:31 (HCSB)
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Seeing this in advance, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Messiah: He was not left in Hades, and His flesh did not experience decay.

FOR GOD TO REMAIN WITH NO DARKNESS IN HIM IS IT LOGICAL THAT
HE DOESN'T ALLOW DARKNESS IN HIS PRESENCE? YES!

Psalm 99:5 (GW)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Highly honor the LORD our God. Bow down at his footstool. He is holy!

IS IT LOGICAL AND BIBLICAL THAT THE SPIRIT PART OF JESUS, WHICH IS GOD THE FATHER, STEPPED OUT OF HIS BODY THE MOMENT HE PLACED THE SINS OF THE WORLD IN THE HUMAN PART OF JESUS? ABSOLUTELY!

Matthew 27:46 (HCSB)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, “Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

 

[VCO]

Here is Dr. John MacArthur's Commentary on the subject, if you want to dig deaper:

A second miracle occurred at about the ninth hour, or three o'clock in the afternoon, through an inexplicable event that might be called sovereign departure, as somehow God was separated from God.
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At that time Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" As Matthew explains, the Hebrew Eli (Mark uses the Aramaic form, "[FONT=Gentium !important]Eloi[/FONT]," 15:34) means, My God, and lama sabachthani means, why hast Thou forsaken Me?
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Because Jesus was quoting the well-known Psalm 22, there could have been little doubt in the minds of those who were standing there as to what Jesus was saying. They had been taunting Him with His claim to be God's Son (v. 43), and an appeal for divine help would have been expected. Their saying, "This man is calling for Elijah," was not conjecture about what He said but was simply an extension of their cruel, cynical mockery.
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In this unique and strange miracle, Jesus was crying out in anguish because of the separation He now experienced from His heavenly Father for the first and only time in all of eternity. It is the only time of which we have record that Jesus did not address God as Father. Because the Son had taken sin upon Himself, the Father turned His back. That mystery is so great and imponderable that it is not surprising that Martin Luther is said to have gone into seclusion for a long time trying to understand it and came away as confused as when he began. In some way and by some means, in the secrets of divine sovereignty and omnipotence, the God-Man was separated from God for a brief time at Calvary, as the furious wrath of the Father was poured out on the sinless Son, who in matchless grace became sin for those who believe in Him.
Habakkuk declared of God, "Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou canst not look on wickedness with favor" (Hab. 1:13). God turned His back when Jesus was on the cross because He could not look upon sin, even—or perhaps especially—in His own Son. Just as Jesus loudly lamented, God the Father had indeed forsaken Him.
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Jesus did not die as a martyr to a righteous cause or simply as an innocent man wrongly accused and condemned. Nor, as some suggest, did He die as a heroic gesture against man's inhumanity to man. The Father could have looked favorably on such selfless deaths as those. But because Jesus died as a substitute sacrifice for the sins of the world, the righteous heavenly Father had to judge Him fully according to that sin.
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The Father forsook the Son because the Son took upon Himself "our transgressions,... our iniquities" (Isa. 53:5). Jesus "was delivered up because of our transgression" (Rom. 4:25) and "died for our sins according to the Scriptures" (1 Cor. 15:3). He "who knew no sin [became] sin on our behalf" (2 Cor. 5:21) and became "a curse for us" (Gal. 3:13). "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross" (1 Pet. 2:24), "died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust" (1 Pet. 3:18), and became "the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 4:10).
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Jesus Christ not only bore man's sin but actually became sin on man's behalf, in order that those who believe in Him might be saved from the penalty of their sin. Jesus came to teach men perfectly about God and to be a perfect example of God's holiness and righteousness. But, as He Himself declared, the supreme reason for His coming to earth was not to teach or to be an example but "to give His life a ransom for many" (Matt. 20:28).
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When Christ was forsaken by the Father, their separation was not one of nature, essence, or substance. Christ did not in any sense or degree cease to exist as God or as a member of the Trinity. He did not cease to be the Son, any more than a child who sins severely against his human father ceases to be his child. But Jesus did for a while cease to know the intimacy of fellowship with His heavenly Father, just as a disobedient child ceases for a while to have intimate, normal, loving fellowship with his human father.
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By the incarnation itself there already had been a partial separation. Because Jesus had been separated from His divine glory and from face-to-face communication with the Father, refusing to hold on to those divine privileges for His own sake (Phil 2:6), He prayed to the Father in the presence of His disciples, "Glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was" (John 17:5). At the cross His separation from the Father became immeasurably more profound than the humbling incarnation during the thirty-three years of His earthly life.
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As already mentioned, the mystery of that separation is far too deep even for the most mature believer to fathom. But God has revealed the basic truth of it for us to accept and to understand to the limit of our ability under the illumination of His Spirit. And nowhere in Scripture can we behold the reality of Jesus' sacrificial death and the anguish of His separation from His Father more clearly and penetratingly than in His suffering on the cross because of sin. In the midst of being willingly engulfed in our sins and the sins of all men of all time, He writhed in anguish not from the lacerations on His back or the thorns that still pierced His head or the nails that held Him to the cross but from the incomparably painful loss of fellowship with His heavenly Father that His becoming sin for us had brought.
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Soon after He cried out to God about being forsaken, "Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, in order that the Scriptures might be fulfilled, said, 'I am thirsty'" (John 19:28). As John then makes clear (v. 29), it was at that time that immediately one of them ran, and taking a sponge, he filled it with sour wine, and put it on a reed, and gave Him a drink.
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The one who ran to help Jesus was probably one of the Roman military guards, and by taking a sponge and filling it with sour wine, he hoped temporarily to slake Jesus' thirst. The sour wine was a cheap wine highly diluted with water that was a common drink for laborers and soldiers. Because it had a high water and low alcohol content, it was especially helpful in quenching thirst. John gives the added detail that the reed was a hyssop branch (John 19:29), which would not have been longer than eighteen inches. In order for such a short branch to reach Jesus' lips, the horizontal beam of the cross would have had to be rather low to the ground.
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Offering the drink to Jesus was perhaps an act of mercy but it was minimal in its effect and served only to prolong the torture before death brought relief. But the rest of those standing near the cross used that gesture of kindness as another opportunity to carry their mockery of the Lord still further, saying, "Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him."
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It seems incredible that even the pitch darkness of midday did not alarm the wicked crowd. They were so bent on scorning Jesus that even such a momentous phenomenon as the blocking out of the sun did not deter them. Being aware of the many Old Testament associations of unnatural darkness with judgment, it would seem they would at least briefly have considered the possibility that divine judgment was occurring at that very moment. But the single thought now on their minds was to make Jesus' death painful and humiliating. They had no comprehension of the amazing alienation of the Son from the Father.
[h=2]Self-Giving Death[/h]

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. (27:50)​

A third miracle of the cross was Christ's self-giving death, the Son's willing sacrifice of Himself for the sins of the world in obedience to His Father's will.
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The fact that Jesus cried out again with a loud voice (cf. v. 46; Mark 15:37; Luke 23:46) demonstrated considerable physical strength, even after the beatings, scourging, crown of thorns, nail wounds, and hanging in agony for several hours. Jesus did not gradually fade away His life ebbing little by little until gone. Even now He made it evident that He was not at the point of utter exhaustion and that He had the resources to stay alive if He so desired.
The last words the Lord cried out from the cross were first, "It is finished" (John 19:30), indicating that the work His Father had sent Him to accomplish was complete. Then, once again addressing God as His Father, He said, "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit" (Luke 23:46).
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[FONT=Gentium !important]Aphiēmi[/FONT] (yielded up) has the basic meaning of letting go or sending away indicating an act of volition. Jesus' life was not taken from Him by men, but rather He surrendered His spirit by the conscious act of His own sovereign will. As He had explained to the Twelve, no one could or would take His life from Him. "I lay it down on My own initiative," He said. "I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again" (John 10:18).
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As just noted, Jesus' ability to speak from the cross in a loud voice indicated a reserve of energy unheard of for a person in His physical condition. Nevertheless, even in light of His severe bodily condition, Jesus died much sooner than normal. Therefore when Joseph of Arimathea informed Pilate of Jesus' death and asked for His body, the governor was surprised and asked a centurion to give verification (Mark 15:43-45).
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Both of those facts attest to Jesus' voluntary surrendering of His spirit. He did not take His own life, but He willingly gave it up to those who sought to take it and who otherwise could not have succeeded.
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On the cross the Father judged the sin of the world that the Son took upon Himself, and the Son, who divinely controls living and dying, willingly surrendered His life as penalty for that sin.

MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Matthew 24-28.

 

[VCO]

Re: Study up...

And...?

That does NOT change anything!

The Son is still not The Father no matter how you slice it, brother...

Study your Greek.

John 14:9 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

This Theologian did:

John 14:7-11
from now on you know Him...

They know God because they had come to know Christ in His ministry and soon in His death and Resurrection. To know Him is to know God. This constant emphasis on Jesus as God incarnate is unmistakably clear in this Gospel (v. 11; 1:1-3, 14, 17, 18; 5:10-23, 26; 8:58; 9:35; 10:30, 38; 12:41; 17:1-5; 20:28).

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

And this Theologian:

Philip knew from the Old Testament that Moses had seen the glory of God and that Isaiah had a vision of the glory of God. I don't think that we should interpret Jesus' answer as a rebuke. He tells Philip that He has performed many miracles. Although Philip had not seen the glory of God as Moses or Isaiah did, he had seen Jesus and had witnessed His words and His works. Everything that Philip wished to see, he had seen in Jesus Christ. He had seen God. In Christ there is a much greater revelation of God than anything in the Old Testament. Philip had the greatest revelation of God because he had seen Him incarnate in flesh and been with Him -- in His presence -- for three years! Remember that the writer to the Hebrews says that Jesus is the brightness of the Father's glory and the express image of His person (see Heb. 1:3). "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" does not mean you are seeing the identical Person, but you are seeing the same Person in power, in character, in love, and in everything else. You have seen all you would see in God the Father because "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18).
Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

And this Theologian:

Jesus' statement, Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father (cf. John 12:45), is one of the most staggering claims He ever made. The Father is in Jesus and Jesus perfectly reveals Him (1:18). Hence no theophany was necessary, for by seeing Jesus they were seeing the Father!
The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty.

And this Theologian:

JOHN 14:9
Jesus patiently corrected him. Philip had been with the Lord for a long time. He was one of the first disciples to be called (John 1:43). Yet the full truth of Christ's deity and of His unity with the Father had not yet dawned on him. He did not know that when he looked at Jesus, he was looking at One who perfectly displayed the Father.
Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

 

[Bowman]

That's a different take that I haven't heard - about or against being created in His image.
Not debating, friend - just have never HOID of such a thing.

It catches most people off guard....but it is in scripture....you can look for yourself...

I don't feel it's necessary to debate my belief that The One True GOD shares every Name from Genesis - Rev, which are many but still Him. The Triune Nature of The Godhead make them One and so I see His Name applied to both the post-incarnational son, 'Jesus' [The Word of GOD from eternity past till eternity future] and GOD. As in Elohim and every other Name for GOD and don't divide the Spirit of God and of Christ from 'Him'.

Three Persons: One being.

There's a number of Scriptures both in the NT, plus a lot of the OT, that brought me to my conclusion - but of course you are free to have yours. Again - not debating - just exchanging thoughts.


These are just a very few of those passages that made me search all the more for Who HE is ...

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

and again -

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


Rev 19:12,13 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and He had a Name written, that no man knew, but He Himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: 'and' his name is called The Word of God.



In GOD our Savior,

Thank you for your reply!

You can see that Rev 21.7 has Jesus as the speaker.....yes?

 

[Bowman]

Re: Study up...

From the verses that I posted, my conclusions are not only logical, but also very Biblical. The last time I checked, GOD never gave us a complete RECORD of everything He ever did, but rather, only the highlights HE deemed necessary for us to KNOW.

John 21:25 (NASB)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they *were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

AND THAT IS NOT EVEN COUNTING THE DEEDS OF THE FATHER AND THE DEEDS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT ARE NOT RECORDED.

By LOGIC and THE WRITTEN WORD:

Unwritten events do not give you free license to state that The Father abandoned The Son.

Scripture does not mention that Jesus rode a Harley...therefore He could have...mentality...

 

[Bowman]

Jacked...

John 14:9 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Again...

Why do you people insist on taking scripture out of context...?

The Son is NOT The Father.

This Theologian did:



And this Theologian:



And this Theologian:



And this Theologian:

Most of your googled webpaste does NOT even support your worldview to begin with.

Further, where is their exegesis?

 

[VCO]

Re: Study up...

Unwritten events do not give you free license to state that The Father abandoned The Son.

Scripture does not mention that Jesus rode a Harley...therefore He could have...mentality...

But Scripture DOES MENTION THAT THERE IS NO DARKNESS IN GOD.

SIN is DARKNESS, and the THAT THE SINS OF THE WORLD WERE PLACED IN THE BODY OF JESUS.

Do the Math.